Red light therapy can be a real gamechanger for many in regards to their health & their sleep. The exciting thing is that it no longer lives just in the doctor’s office or reserved for elite athletes. The message is beginning to trickle down to the masses. But what is so great about red light therapy anyway, and how can it stand to improve your sleep specifically? How do we decern between the red light products that are worth the investment and those that are a waste of money? What is flicker rate, and why does it matter? Sarah Turner answers all of this and more in this week’s episode. GUEST BIO: Sarah has research background in the field of novel therapeutic devices, circadian biology, chronobiology, and Biohacking. She has studied Psychological Science, Nutritional Medicine and Clinical Neuroscience Sarah is a member of the team at Recharge – a start-up frontier technology company with a focus on disruptive health technologies that empower the individual to take control of their own health. Sarah is a red light therapist therapy expert, and regularity talks on the subject of photobiomodulation and wellness. She uses FlexBEAM with home users, biohackers and within a research clinical setting. Her goal is to put this innovative, all natural, non-drug therapy into the hands of the individual.
Circadian Biology, “it’s something we need to pay attention to”
Sunlight in today’s world, do we get enough sunlight?
Why is sunlight important and how does it relate to red light?
Effects of artificial lights: What is red light, and how can it help us? UV lights and Red lights What type of lights can we buy to improve our sleep schedule and sleep quality?
How do we use red lights, and how do they help?
How do the red lights alter hormones and help with different illnesses?
Which red light products should we avoid?
QUOTES:
“We are mammals that have evolved under the sun; only recently, we have become this creature that lives indoors all the time and under artificial lights.”
“The light environment is hugely important for humans; we need to have natural light.”
“Our bodies are covered in with light receptors, not just our eyes; it’s our skin; it’s our fat cells…”
“Our whole body is geared up sense light and our environment through light.”
“For so many conditions and people who have a problem sleeping, is due to our light environment, it’s a huge factor in all kinds of health situations.”
EPISODE LINKS:
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Email: sarah@personalrecharge.com
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Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/company/nordiclights-no/
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Unknown Speaker 0:04
Welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My name is Mollie McGlocklin. And I own a company that optimizes sleep through technology accountability and behavioral change. Each week, I'll be interviewing world class experts ranging from doctors, innovators and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Let's jump into your dose of practical sleep training. Alright, folks, I think you're gonna really enjoy today's podcast because it is all around red light therapy, and how red light therapy can help improve your sleep goals. Of course it is the sleep is a skill podcast. So we're going to be focusing particularly in on sleep, but we also will touch a little bit on how red light therapy can also help serve your overall health and well being as well. So we're going to get into the weeds with Miss Sarah Turner. And I'm going to read you a little bit about her background so you understand why she's a great person for us to learn more about this topic now. Sarah has research background in the field of novel therapeutic devices, circadian biology, crona biology and biohacking. She has studied physiological science and nutrition medicine and clinical neuroscience, Sarah is a member of the team at recharge. Now this is the company that we're taking a look at specifically, you know, kind of their interesting product. But this can apply to a number of red light therapy devices. But they've got some cool stuff that they're doing over here at recharge, which is a startup. And it's a startup frontier technology company with a focus on disruptive health technologies that empower the individual to take control of their own health. And Sarah is a red light therapist, therapy expert and regularly talks on the field of photo bio modulation and wellness, she uses the flex beam, which is one of their products with home users biohackers. And within a research clinical setting, her goal is to put this innovative, all natural non drug therapy into the hands of the individual. Now one of the things I personally liked about their company is that they are looking of how to make this more affordable and practical to the user. And we'll get into the how of that. But one of the things I don't love is that some of these can get, really the prices can get really wildly jacked up. And it doesn't always have to be that way. Particularly, you know, for me coming from no money really growing up. You know, I really like to see more and more companies that are looking to how to make this available to the masses, you know, where possible. So I think you're going to really enjoy this conversation. And as always, please feel free to reach out to us at sleep as a skill comm we have weekly newsletters, you know, you have sleep assessment on there, all kinds of things that you can do to stay in contact. And then if you have any questions at all, as it relates to this or other podcasts, please don't hesitate to reach out. We've very interactive companies so ready and willing and able to answer any of your own questions that you may have. And now let's jump into the podcast. Hi, Sarah, welcome to the sleepest skill Podcast. I am so grateful that you're able to take the time to be here to speak with us today.
Unknown Speaker 3:24
Yes, it's a pleasure. It's a pleasure, Molly.
Unknown Speaker 3:26
Oh, excellent. Well, we are going to have fun, I really enjoyed our conversation that we had leading up to this podcast. And I know you're going to be dropping some gems for people today. And so right to get in to kind of where it all began, I'd love to hear how you got into the really interesting areas that you've taken on that really can both be really helpful to sleep. And I know you haven't been more beyond that, but in the area of grounding and light therapy. So I'd love to hear more about your kind of origin story.
Unknown Speaker 3:57
Cool. Yeah. Well, I I started up in pharmaceuticals Actually, I started off doing pharmaceutical research. And at the time, I was investigating dry powders and and how they deposit in the lung. And one of the experiments was looking at grounding versus non grounding and the effect that has on taking a drug. And my remit wasn't actually to look at grounding the rim It was really to try and find a different way to deliver the drug to the body. But actually doing those experiments I kind of suddenly had that moment that it's not really to do with the drug you're taking it's to do with your environment, and to do with the person. So you have these huge individual differences in people even in their response to drugs because of you know, whether they're grounded or not something very simple as that. So kind of that was my first awakening to Okay, it's about the individual and the environment. So I left the drug company went off and did nutritional medicine for a little while because I thought okay, this is how you can kind of prime the person for wellness. But actually I soon discovered You know, that's not Not quite the full story, and I moved to California and got into the whole biohacking scene. And that's where I kind of learned a whole lot more about, you know, the role of light in the environment, for example, which is where I kind of, From then on, you know, focused a lot of my attention looking at different alternative medicines, but kind of over time, I've kind of narrowed it down now to light is my thing.
Unknown Speaker 5:23
Absolutely. And I know you have incredible background of knowledge in this area of light. So I was, I would love if you could almost paint a brief stroke on understanding for people that are newer to this conversation around how in the world does light impact? Of course, our general health? And then in this conversation, our sleep? How are those connected?
Unknown Speaker 5:44
Yeah, well, when when you think about it, you know, it seems a bit far fetched, but actually, you know, we are mammals that have evolved under the sun, you know, it's only fairly recently that we have become this creature that's kind of indoors all the time and under these artificial lights that we've created. So it would make sense really, that our biology is in tune with the sun and with natural light. And I think it's something that's becoming more and more apparent, as we start to look at these different health complaints. That really, it's the light environment is hugely important for humans, for all mammals, you know, we need to have natural light, and actually, our bodies are covered in light receptors, you know, it's not just our eyes, it's our skin, it's our fat cells, it's our mitochondria. You know, our whole body is geared up to sense like to sense our environment, through light. So I think it's becoming more and more apparent that this, this is why for so many conditions, and you know, people who have trouble sleeping, you know, it's a manifestation of that kind of chronic conditions that we have now is probably due to our light environment, you know, mainly, it's one of the huge factors in all kinds of health conditions, especially in the West, you know, we don't quite have so many, you know, of these infectious illnesses, although now of course, we have this, you know, huge pandemic, which is affecting everybody and affecting everybody sleep. And you know, how have we kind of come to that position by by the way that we live? That's an interesting topic. But I certainly think our light environment is hugely important for health generally. And I think sleeplessness is actually a sign of poor health in some cases.
Unknown Speaker 7:30
Absolutely. And of course, you've been able to, in our previous conversation, I was really could identify with the fact that you've created your relationship to light as to be a bit of a real lifestyle, you've moved, you've set up your days in a way that allow you to ensure that light is a part of your day to day activities, if it's in your calendar, it has a home, you know, kind of, there's a whole relationship there. And I'm wondering if you could share more about, then why is that itself? Not enough? Or maybe not? Not enough? But what is this relationship around red light therapy, in particular, that you see is really so beneficial? And as it relates to getting great sleep? What is the connection there? And why can't we just stop at getting sunlight?
Unknown Speaker 8:17
Well, I think it would be cool if we could all get as much sunlight as we need.
Unknown Speaker 8:23
And how many of us are doing that? Not many? Yes.
Unknown Speaker 8:27
I think that's probably one of the major problems is that we don't do that, you know, I was just having a quick, I was just kind of surfing the web just now. And I came up with a statistic that 90% of Americans see a screen before they go to bed. You know, most people live an indoor lifestyle with, we don't get enough sunshine. And for some people, you know, that's because of where we live. But for most people, you know, we, our jobs don't allow us to be outside in the sun all day, you know. So the reason that I'm interested in photobiomodulation, which is kind of the umbrella term for red light therapy, you know, red light therapy comes underneath that umbrella is because you can one you can kind of target the red light, because one of the things that's being discovered now is that red light is actually hugely healing. And so you can use it for you know, kinds of different things, reducing inflammation, reducing pain, helping heal wounds, but you can do it in a way that's kind of it's more controlled. So that's one of the reasons why you might use a red light device,
Unknown Speaker 9:31
because you help kind of bridge the gap from the relationship to red light and how that is something that's not particularly as foreign as many of us might think that it's something that we are able to have access to in elements of our sunlight exposure at different points throughout the day, and then you're actually providing a bridge to be able to get that more readily, you know, in our own timeline.
Unknown Speaker 9:57
Yes, well, red light is contained in sunlight. Sunlight has a what they call full spectrum. So that means it has all the colors and more Besides, you know, it has colors that we can't see. And it's sunrise you have a predominance of red, and a little bit of green and blue. And as the sun comes up in the sky, then you have more ultraviolet. And as it sets down again, you have more read. And that's why the sun, the sunrise and the sunset to read. So this this kind of narrow band of light in the red spectrum is something that you naturally get in Sun. And more specifically, you kind of get it at that you get it at sunrise and sunset. So this is not something alien, this is this is just utilizing that small portion of light that you would get in in sunlight. But you're using it in a in a more directed and more focused and more controlled way.
Unknown Speaker 10:48
So interesting. Okay, so then, and I know you've been actively working to study more around the connection between red light therapy, and sleep. And so you're, you know, kind of in the process of doing all kinds of really interesting research in that, what are some of the things that you're beginning to tap into of this connection? So why are these things connected, I do have clients that will be interested in red light therapy as it relates to pain management, and of course, the connection with how that can help if they're being, you know, woken up throughout the night or not having difficulty falling asleep. So they might make that connection. But beyond that might not see the link up between why I get shot with red light, and then it's going to help my sleep. How does that work?
Unknown Speaker 11:29
So there's a number of mechanisms or reasons why you might want to use a red light device for sleep. I think maybe one of the most important ones is circadian biology. And the second one is energy. So I'll go into both of those. your circadian rhythms are what controls kind of what your body's doing, at various times of the day, there was Nobel Prize given for circadian biology fairly recently, because it's becoming a very big topic. And people are really beginning to understand, okay, this is something we need to pay attention to. If your circadian biology is kind of in harmony with the cues that you get from your environment, then the body kind of does everything it needs to do at the right time. And a lot of that is hormone production. So probably people listening to your podcast, they probably know a little bit about sleep hormones like melatonin and things that you need for sleep. And your body makes those at certain times of the day and releases them at certain times of the day. So you need to have this kind of rhythm with your hormones specifically for sleep so that your body kind of knows what to do at the right times. So one of the things you can do like seeing sunrise kind of sets yourself up for your pituitary gland. And for all of those places where the hormones are made it produced your skin to start doing those things ready for the next evening. So if you want to have you know, good hormone production, you need to kind of start at the beginning of the day. I know that sounds a bit counterintuitive, but if you set your body up at the beginning of the day, you start the process of all those hormones being made and ready to be released at evening when you need them. And then you can sleep you restore. And again, you set it off again the next day. But for your body to kind of keep that up. It really does need to know you know what time of day it is.
Unknown Speaker 13:16
What about for the people that will really wave the flag of their chronotype. And they'll say okay, but I am a night owl. That's how it is. It's just the way I'm set up. And then so this idea of me waking up with the sunrise getting that red light. That's all well and good. But that doesn't align with the way I'm wired. Were some of your insights around that.
Unknown Speaker 13:39
I think it's something that can be changed. Yeah, I think it's a case of habit. I think if you continually go to bed fairly early and get up with sunrise, it's a process but it will happen. You know, even the most hardy night owls, you know, if they're getting up at five, six o'clock every morning, We'll soon find that they want to go to bed a little bit earlier.
Unknown Speaker 14:00
I am one of those people. I mean, I think we mostly talked about my story. But I was one of most extreme at night owls, you know that you'll meet for years and just was toting? Oh, this is just how it is. That's by jam, you know, the whole thing. And now I am the sun loving sunrise seeker. So absolutely. I completely agree with that. And so much of it is the chronotype topic is a big one. And since Edison, you know, this is just such a it's gotten really taking the liberty of and it's really extended to such abnormal behavior. So absolutely love that. So we've established then that there's something really important happening here when we are connected to this red light. And based on the type of lifestyles that we're living, the type of blue light that we're exposed to a number of things that leads us to believe that then by supplementing with this external red light therapy at different points throughout our day can really make a difference. You know, we touched on payments judgment and then also as it relates to the sleep, health and circadian rhythm. So what would you say? For what could that look like for people? So I've had different people ask me questions around timing for red light exposure, and when kind of is optimal for that? What do you what are some of your insights there?
Unknown Speaker 15:16
Yes, I think that there are different times that you can use red light therapy to have a maximal effect. I also think it's a lot for a lot of people, it's an energy issue. Yeah, you know, as well as the circadian biology, there's an energy issue there. Because sleep is an energetic process, actually, you know, I think people think that you go to sleep when you're exhausted. But actually, to get good sleep, you need to have a lot of energy, because the brain is doing a lot of things while you're asleep. And so to build up energy, you can use the red light, because it targets the mitochondria where you make energy. So I think if it's somebody who was really struggling with sleep, what I would suggest is to as much as possible, be outside in the daytime, especially sunrise, and then maybe an hour in the middle of the day, so that you're kind of giving your bodies the signal, and then use the red light, as you know, in the afternoon, is what I would suggest.
Unknown Speaker 16:13
And why do you suggest afternoon, that's great.
Unknown Speaker 16:17
Because you want to you want to encourage this release of melatonin, okay, you know, imagine like our ancestors, you know, they kind of finish their day, you know, they're sitting around a fire looking at the red light, and then their bodies know, it's time to go to sleep, they've already seen that the sun goes down, and then you have red light, you know, there's no artificial light, and then you go to sleep. So I think it's the best way to kind of mimic that is to as much as possible, be outside. And we've discussed, you know, it's not easy, you know, we are living these indoor lifestyles. But if you if you use a red light, like in the, I would say in the early afternoon, you don't want to have it too much after the sun's gone down, if you have sleep issues, and then limit your light exposure, that's kind of another crucial thing is to try not to have artificial light blue lights in the evening. And there are things you can do, as you know, blue blocker glasses, limiting your screen.
Unknown Speaker 17:13
Absolutely, and pulling from your kind of biohacking knowledge. I'm wondering, so I have a number of clients that have a series of reasons as to at least for right now, why they can't get proper exposure to sunrise, sunset, super urban environments, sickness, you know, issues. So they've looked at, you know, some of these more, kind of more mainstream approaches to getting light therapy. So they'll look at getting into these light boxes, and then pairing them with red lights at the same time to try to help simulate as much as possible, what we would have been getting in nature, full spectrum, sunlight, what are some of your, you know, Now, granted, I know that that is none of these things are ideal. on the spectrum, obviously, we want to encourage people to set up their life in a way that will help, you know, ensure that they're getting sunlight, if they're in that odd situation, where if there's some legitimacy to the fact that they can't get that are there things that they is that an approach, you know, kind of blending that those artificial lights in a way that can help support kind of a mimicking of that sunrise or sunset?
Unknown Speaker 18:19
Yeah, I think so anything that you can do that will kind of mimic the natural state of what's going on outside is better than not doing it at all. And for some people, you know, it's a stepwise process. And the more you do it, the better your sleep, the better yourself will recover, the more you'll be able to find solutions to those problems. So I think the first step really is just looking at your light environment and maybe seeing if there's one thing you can change, you know, yeah, maybe you can turn off screens at night, and then maybe you can get amber bulbs and maybe you can get a red light device and use it in the evening, then, you know, you can get one of your panels. But I think working up to then kind of being outside more using these red lights to kind of focus red light, if you have an issue not watching any screens that that you know, there's always extremes isn't there and there's always ways that you can work towards that.
Unknown Speaker 19:11
So true. Okay, so I like what you said too, about, you know, the panels and these different things. I will get so many questions from people that are so their their interest is piqued around red light therapy, but then they want to know what's next. And then they get kind of decision fatigue or paralysis around. Which direction do I go? Can I just get some of these more inexpensive red lights? What's the difference between some of the you know, a flicker rates and who do I trust? So I was wondering if you could help us break it down between from a realm of pricing, what makes sense? Where do we need what is effective, what is not effective, kind of navigate that world of red lights? So we know it's something that could really help benefit us. But then what steps do we take Where can we maybe save some money on some, you know, kind of interior lights with red light and Then where do we spend more money therapeutically? For some higher grades? technology?
Unknown Speaker 20:06
Yeah, there are a lot of choices for sure. And so I think some basic rules of thumb are one, you want to use a light that doesn't have very high EMF emissions, if sleep is what you're looking for, because there's a lot of evidence now to show that, you know, sleep is hugely disruptive by being near non native electromagnetic fields. So you kind of don't want to have one that's putting out too many of those. And for the, you know, it depends how geeky you are. But I use a monitor where I actually test the emissions, you know, you can buy them, they're fairly inexpensive, and it will actually tell you where the EMF emissions are coming from, from your devices and from things around the home.
Unknown Speaker 20:43
Could you give us your recommendation for one of the meters that you use it? No, there's so many on the market, or just one that you think is kind of a good place to start?
Unknown Speaker 20:52
Well, I use one from CT is called cornet.
Unknown Speaker 20:55
Okay, great.
Unknown Speaker 20:56
But that's that was 100 bucks, but you can get the you can get the ones that just give you like an amber, like red. Yes. And then green indication? And maybe we'll put a resource there. I don't know, actually, from but but
Unknown Speaker 21:10
then that's fine. Yeah. Often you see, okay, is it red or not, that say the one I have just gives you a reading, and it's very, very easy to use. That's wonderful. No, thank you for including that, because that's another one. So it within the red light realm of things, the meters, you know, which ones make sense to invest in which ones don't? Yeah, so that's, that's very helpful. And we'll we'll add more of the resources to thank you. Okay, so so ensuring that any red light that we do invest in is not going to be off putting all kinds of this, you know, harmful electromagnetic frequencies or fields that will then impact our sleep quality.
Unknown Speaker 21:46
Yes. So that's one of the things you want to look for, you also want to make sure that it's medical grade LVDS. Because you know, you don't want to be polluting yourself while you're, you're doing your therapy. So you don't want to buy like a really cheap one on Amazon. But you know, most reputable companies that you find online will kind of give you the specifications, and you want to kind of check the power output, and make sure that it's, you know, a fairly high power device.
Unknown Speaker 22:12
Okay, that's great. Could you help us navigate a little bit around? So as people are looking at so for instance, the power output, is there kind of a range that we're looking to achieve for certain things? Or is it very dependent on the goals? So whether it's pain management sleep, what would you kind of suggest for some of that?
Unknown Speaker 22:30
I think he won't, because there are different measurements in red light therapy devices. And it can be quite tricky, because the panels when you're looking at the dose, the dose depends on how close you are to them. Yeah, I'll show you the device that I personally Miss. Because it fits to the body, then you know that the dose is the dose. So this one has an upper dose of 60 joules per centimeter squared. Okay, that's actually the power for the amount of surface area. But I think you know, something, you want something about 20 to 30 joules per centimeter squared as a kind of a rough rule of thumb. Okay, that's great one, look around that dose. But yes, these ones, the ones that kind of go flat against the body are very good, because you don't plug them into the main so you're not getting that kind of pollution from electrics Plus, you get the same dose each time. And when you have the higher dose ones, it means you can you don't need as much therapeutic time, you know that you can just do it for 10 minutes. 20 minutes.
Unknown Speaker 23:29
Oh, wow. Okay, so this one, then there's no actual wall plug for this. Yeah, that's great. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 23:38
This one, this one also allows you to choose the settings because I'm saying red light. But I'm encompassing near infrared in that,
Unknown Speaker 23:46
because they're ideal for that distinction. Yeah.
Unknown Speaker 23:49
Yes, red light is the visible one, you can see it's red, and it's in a certain wavelength, it's usually about six to 700 nanometers. And then you get into the near infrared range, which is in visible light, but it also is very, very therapeutic. So most devices will have a combination of those. This particular device lets you really choose whether you want mainly red, which is for surface conditions because it doesn't go so deep, or near infrared, which will go into the body deep. Got that? It has two applications. Let me see if I can get this one going for you just so you can see what I'm great. So this one you can see it's battery operated so you haven't got the pollution but also it will fit around. So this one for sleep, you know, I kind of have it on the abdomen, because then you're targeting that.
Unknown Speaker 24:40
Yes.
Unknown Speaker 24:42
Oh my god, I love that ration. Also a lot of hormones are produced in the gut, you know, 90% of serotonin is actually produced in the gut. So you know, versus what? Yeah, because we
Unknown Speaker 24:54
have, you know, so many people will come to sleep as a skill that are on multiple different types of energy. depressants and things looking to encourage that. And unfortunately, you know, might be missing that crucial element of that conversation that you're really pointing to. That's really important. Okay, so then so you might recommend targeting the gut, if you're looking to impact sleep quality.
Unknown Speaker 25:18
Yeah, I think it depends. I mean, there's a lot of reasons why people would have coarsely, and, you know, people could have inflammation, they can have pain, they can have, you know, illness, which is impacting that. So I think for that, for those people, you know, there could be protocols that have a specific impact. But I think as a general protocol, the gut, you know, it's such a plexus, where so much stuff happens, just a 10 minute treatment time there, you know, as you're winding down to go to bed. You know, that's, that's the protocol that we use in the studies that we're looking at is amazing, and maybe even across the spine, you know, 10.
Unknown Speaker 25:55
So great. And what about some of the transcranial work around the red light therapy? When would that be beneficial for people to engage in
Unknown Speaker 26:05
transcranial is very interesting, using light for the brain, it's something that's relatively new, there's a lot of research, yes, mood disorders, you know, people who are looking at newer degeneration or even trying to prevent neuro degeneration, there's a lot of evidence to show that light can actually penetrate through the skull into the brain. And again, it's something that you want to look at, depending on what you're trying to do for your own health journey. I think really, as regards to a protocol for people who are not sleeping, I would say it would be the same as the body protocol, we're sure
Unknown Speaker 26:36
you want to kind of do it towards the afternoon evening to kind of to encourage that hormone and, and all the other good things. But yes, it's, it's very interesting, how photobiomodulation can be used, you know, because he's working on the mitochondria, it's working more on the energy for yourself. So it's not so much as symptom based treatment, it's more actually encouraging your body to kind of use the energy where it's needed.
Unknown Speaker 27:03
So interesting. Okay. So obviously, you're really well versed in this area, this this field, and what was it? So you know, so you got to show us that this item is pretty unique. Are there is this really out of the norm in the in the world of red light therapy, to be able to have something that does operate like that that slow EMF? Is that part of the reason for your passion in this particular, working with this company? And as we're looking at navigating this world, so many of the other alternatives more generating that kind of dirty electricity, part of the main reason that you went with this company?
Unknown Speaker 27:40
Yes, in a way, I mean, this company, this company is called recharge, and they've made this device and one of the things that they really want you to do is make an affordable device. with red light therapies, it can get expensive, you know, some of the beds you're looking at over 100,000. You know, so that's why I liked you know, when I heard about this company, that, oh, that's super cool. They want to make it accessible for everyone. Because it shouldn't just be for the elite that you have these devices. So that was one of the main motivators, but because it is flexible, convenient. I mean, I travel a lot. I mean, I do, I do actually have big saunas, and I have pads from other companies, I have all kinds of things Sure, plays for different things. But this is so convenient for me. Because you can use it while you're doing other things. You know, if you're busy, you know you want you're doing a bit of cooking in the evening, you can just strap this around and multitask, which is so great. Yeah, that's why I think I this device stands out for me, the other panels are super cool. But you do have to allocate time to do it. And you know, we're all trying to stack our bio hacks fit everything in that we want to do in the day, you know, I want to make time to go to the beach. So I don't want to be spending lots of time on all these different health protocols. I want something that I can fit in while I'm doing something else.
Unknown Speaker 29:01
Absolutely. And could you speak a little bit to this conversation or the concern around the flicker on some, you know, different red light options that are out there? That why that could negatively kind of because so many people are might have the their intentions in the right place. They're looking to really Okay, I'm ready to invest. I'm ready to do this. But then why are some of these things that we might invest in actually kind of counterproductive? On that topic of the flicker rate?
Unknown Speaker 29:28
There's two things to consider. There's flicker and there's posting and I think sometimes that gets muddled up, because it's both of those where you're, you're modulating the signal in some way. pulsing is done very specifically to have a specific effect, like certain of the cranial devices will post at 40 or 10 hertz because that matches the alpha, gamma brain frequencies. So there's a difference between devices that are using pulsing in a way that they're they're targeting the body or they're matching a body's natural oscillation. And this device does have that pulsing and one of the settings you can you have a pulsing at 40. And that's been shown to harmonize certain of the body's frequencies. flicker usually comes from when you're plugged into the mains, and you're picking up oscillations from the electricity supply. And it's different in different countries, you know, it's sometimes it's 50 hertz, sometimes it's 60 hertz, sometimes, you know, but it's very monotonous. And it can be very annoying. It's, I think, the main annoying things, you know, if you have fluorescent lights, and they're just doing a little flicker gives people headaches, because there are certain frequencies that the body doesn't resonate with. And it just becomes annoying to the body, if you like, it's an irritation. So yes, flicker is something that you want to avoid posting is something that you might want to explore, depending on what you're trying to do
Unknown Speaker 30:55
that that, okay, so from your experience, you've tried some of these different other, you know, various options that are available on the market right now. Plus the you know, some of the expenses on the spectrum can really get out there. And I really appreciate you looking at that topic, because that's really near and dear to my heart as well coming from no money growing up. And, you know, this idea that in order to get great sleep in our modern day society, we have to seemingly spend all this money, it's just doesn't seem to align. So I appreciate that. Because I really do believe that there's just a couple core investments that we can make in the 21st century. And then once you do it, then that you can yield so many results. So I think that's wonderful. And a lot of them are these behavioral changes that you're speaking to that are so powerful, largely, you know, a lot of what you're saying is free, it's like getting outside, getting that sunlight, setting up your days in a way that align with with healthy practices. And that's repeating rhythm and energy management. Okay, so to kind of recap, then, as far as implementing this in our days, we want to make sure that we are even pulling this into the afternoon, evening time of things with our goal is around sleep and circadian rhythms. So pull you out and run 10 minutes or so you can even be doing other things while you're while you're wearing this. And then in addition to that, if people are dealing with pain, so I will have a number of people that might wake up in the middle of the night with you know, whether it's arthritic pain or arthritis, you know, back pain, headaches, is there anything that we can also look at with red light therapy to? So as far as this pain conversation, what, what does that look like for the protocol around and I know it's case by case, but just targeting
Unknown Speaker 32:37
Yes, it's really targeting, there's a lot of things that red light, do, you know, we kind of touched on it, but the body is so complicated, and all the systems are interrelated. One of the things it also does is it releases a molecule called nitric oxide, which helps expand blood vessels. So things like headaches or issues where you have pain, that's probably due to kind of like a lack of blood supply. Or, you know, even if you have an injury that you're trying to get to recover, you need a good blood supply, you need nutrients to go there, you need ways to be taken away. So something that you can do on a symptom base is use the red light just over where you have the pain. You know, if you have a really a key D, you can just use it there. And then for the Aqa, you know, we're kind of talking about circadian biology because I think that's vitally important for people with sleep issues. But of course, if you've got a pain or something, then you're not going to sleep too. So you know, you don't need to wait until the evening if you have a pain, you can use it as a symptom based remedy. Got that.
Unknown Speaker 33:35
So I have, you know, a number of people that are coming to me and they are cranky, exhausted, you know, you know, how we all get when we're when we're tired. And they might have had and I can relate to this to this kind of like I try something I didn't work through the whole idea out. And I'm wondering if you can speak to why that might not work in the area of red lights. So Case in point, I've spoken to so many people that I've tried that, you know, I put on the red light didn't do anything, and then they just put it into the closet and it collects dust is there kind of a an idea of a trending with red light therapy that it can kind of take a little bit of time, it's not as if it's like immediately done, you know, you do it, like a cause and effect is there kind of needs to happen on a regular basis to reap the benefits.
Unknown Speaker 34:21
Yes, you need to do it on a regular basis, you need to keep up you need to make it a routine. It works on a kind of principle of homeostasis, like you kind of stress the system a little bit and it gets stronger and stronger every time. The red light when it enters the body, one of the main things that happens is it's picked up by a light receptor in the mitochondria. And then you have this whole cascade of reactions that affect your biology. Every time you do it, the body kind of reacts in response to this, oh, the red light again, maybe I'll generate some more receptors to deal with that because you know, if it happens again, then we're ready. And if you do that over a period of time, you up regulate the receptors for that light. So then the He's able to respond faster and quicker every time you do it. But it's a gradual process. It's like exercise, you know, it's the same principle, you can't expect to kind of go out for one run, and then that's it, you're fit.
Unknown Speaker 35:13
Yeah, thank you for saying that.
Unknown Speaker 35:17
You build the muscle up, every time you stretch that muscle, it grows a little bit, you stretch it a little bit, it grows a little bit each time. And then after six months, you know, you can run a marathon, but you can't just run a marathon after one run around the block, you have these things?
Unknown Speaker 35:32
Yeah, now that's so great. And we see that even on the numbers for people when they're tracking HRV. And so they'll see their HRV rates really kind of tank after strenuous, extensive exercise. And then but over time, we get to see the trends go in the direction that we're looking for. So that's really, really great point. And I'd imagine too, of course, circadian rhythm is such a, you know, delicate process, and it doesn't happen overnight, anyone that's traveled multiple time zones, we'll see how long it can kind of take for us to adjust on these topics. So on because we're touching on two things in this conversation, pain and circadian rhythm, and even third, the energy management. So have you seen for yourself with different people, of course, it's different with each case, but you know, an expectation of a protocol, you know, ensuring that first circadian rhythm management, sticking with it, even like in a month's time, do we start to kind of see that adjustment? Or is it just really just got to make it a daily practice?
Unknown Speaker 36:33
To know, I haven't seen so many, like, I haven't done research on circadian rhythms using red light, I mean, things but we have, I haven't looked at that. But I've been to a lot of these biohacker events and you know, chatting to people. And people say, yeah, it took a long time to kind of get into the habit of it. But seeing results, you know, I think some people can see results quite quickly, it depends on your light environment. Now, you know, if you've kind of been someone who just, you know, looks at your phone, as soon as you wake up, and then it's on the screen all day, and then goes fed with attorney, you may find that just after a week, you'll see massive improvement. Good. Very
Unknown Speaker 37:10
good point. Yeah. Yeah, it's really relative.
Unknown Speaker 37:14
But I can catch switching your whole lifestyle to kind of follow this on, you know, that's a commitment. And it depends how ill you are, how motivated you are to do that.
Unknown Speaker 37:23
Absolutely. But the results, the the how good you feel, it's addictive. And I know you you live that too? That's amazing.
Unknown Speaker 37:31
Yes. Right. So it's just little things. And you see, you know, I think he you become your own experiment, really, and you try, and you keep trying, but you do have to kind of you do have to give yourself a few weeks of doing it and monitor to the effect. Okay,
Unknown Speaker 37:47
thank you for saying that. Yeah, because I'll start underlining that with clients a bit more and the importance of sticking with it. But then from that context, it's even more clear. So then, I was wondering if you could you would mention, I just wanted to underscore what you said about kind of the proximity, you know, because there I will have some clients that, oh, I've got a sauna, and it has the red light in there. So I'm covered. But as you mentioned, that my really not be doing as much as that we could be doing if it's right on our on our body. And of course measuring and ensuring that any red light that we're getting is also coming along with a lot of emf exposure as well. So that might be one area for some people that, okay, I've got the red light, we're covered there. But to your point, there's a whole different level of kind of healing that can be done or regulation that can occur when it's right on on the body. So that makes a big difference. Well, I know soldiers
Unknown Speaker 38:39
are using a different form of energy saunas are using heat energy, yes, the spectrum of light is is higher. Yes, the healing light spectrum. So to get the effects of photonic energy, you need light, not heat. So all there is, is a healing modality, but it won't work from the point of the word stabilizers to Padian biology so much, and
Unknown Speaker 39:04
what about the ones where they'll come? Okay, so you just add on another little, it's almost like a car upgrade. And now you'll get the chromo therapy, or, you know, so you'll be able to pull in, you got blue light, you got red light, you got all these things. And I'm not to knock that as an option. But yeah, I was wondering if you could kind of parse that out a bit more how that it's so different from what we're talking about in this conversation on on the actual body and the different types of light if you could underscore that a bit more.
Unknown Speaker 39:31
Yeah, there are not many saunas that actually have the near infrared light in that healing spectrum, which Yeah, I would say 800 to 1300, you kind of want it within that range. But within that range, there are also specific wavelengths that are more healing because you have these kind of absorption these optic windows, they call them this therapeutic windows. So if you can afford for a start to get a sauna that has infrared heat and the light then that's That's very cool. But also it is your right, if you don't have it pushed up against your body, it's more of like a shower, it's more of something that will help you generally, but it's not probably going to get right in deep to areas where you might need, like, if you have some kind of chronic issue, like, for example, this device, you can see because it bends, you know, if you had like a shoulder issue or a knee issue, you're getting the convergent beam of those lights kind of straight into your body. And because light travels in a straight line, you know, we know from school, it travels in a straight line, the angle that it penetrates, your body will fastly affect what the target tissue inside. So if you have something that contours to your body, the light is all going in because the angle is correct. So that's another reason why I like this product is because the angle of penetration is very important. If you're standing against something or if you've got something in your Sona, you're only really going to get the light where you are immediately perpendicular to that
Unknown Speaker 41:00
lightning. So really great point. Thank you.
Unknown Speaker 41:02
Yes, it's great for healing, but maybe not so much for targeted issues. Or if you have pain or inflammation or something that you're working on, you might want to kind of invest in one of these ones that curves round.
Unknown Speaker 41:14
Oh, my gosh. All right, well, so it's clear that one, you're so full of information, that too, maybe we can get you back on to do more on the grounding, because I know there's a whole other world of information there, too. What's it like a part two, among the many things that you have to offer and your notice information that you do have? I'm wondering too, so just to kind of recap, number one, I love that stat that you pulled the you know, 90% of us are seeing some sort of screen before bed, what that's doing to our circadian rhythm, you've really devoted a lot of your life to now helping people to understand the power of light. So even just on a totally free basis, if you're getting nothing else out of this conversation, setting up your life in your calendar in a way that supports getting outside no charge there. And then, of course, also being cognizant of the fact that that sunrise and sunset are where it's more rich in that healing light. And then for those of us that aren't setting up, well, even for those of us that are doing that, but then want to take it to the next level, we can pull in this therapeutic red light therapy throughout our day looking to hit that ideally in the afternoon into the evening timeframe, the hitting the gut can be particularly beneficial for serotonin production and circadian rhythm management. So there's a lot going on there. And then of course, pain management. And some of the basic rules of thumb EMF, are something that you want to really ensure are not part of this conversation. When you are, you know, hitting something on your body for multiple times a day, every day, we're looking to make this a lifestyle. So if you're, you can unfortunately be counteracting that there's certain things that you can invest in like that coordinate meter or different meters will provide more links to that, and fairly inexpensive to just kind of sift out what's going to be helping you and what's going to be really unfortunately kind of harming. And you provided some awesome ranges for us. Thank you for that around the kind of power output that we're looking for. So we'll provide more of those details in the show notes. And then you've provided so much so how can people begin to follow more of what you're up to the research that you're conducting your company? Any other information for that so that people can be in this conversation more regularly?
Unknown Speaker 43:31
Yes. So we have a blog on the flex theme.com. And that's the company recharge. We're going to be at some of these big biohacking events. So hopefully we're gonna have live events soon. Oh,
Unknown Speaker 43:44
boy.
Unknown Speaker 43:47
That's amazing. What are some of the ones coming up that you're excited about?
Unknown Speaker 43:51
I'm back in England right now. So it'd be the London health optimization summit rate, of course, the biohacker summit in Helsinki. And hopefully, bulletproof next year. Yeah, Max.
Unknown Speaker 44:05
So great, awesome.
Unknown Speaker 44:06
Good events. So yeah, so you can come and see us at the booth, sir. But yeah, the blog, you know, we have a good blog writer on recharging. There's some good information there.
Unknown Speaker 44:15
Awesome.
Unknown Speaker 44:16
Yeah, cuz, you know, there's just so many you can go to at this point. And it's kind of understanding where to invest your time. And so I'm so grateful for you that you're sharing this information. And I know you live this, this is not, it's clear to me that this is distinct from a business. This is like something that you partake in every single day of your life. So really, really great. Okay, awesome. So we'll provide those in the show notes. And so that people can ensure that they're a part of you that is there a newsletter or anything is can they sign up to give their email? Okay, great. Great.
Unknown Speaker 44:48
So you can sign up and I believe at the moment if you sign up, you get free shipping. There may be some other off run by the time people sign up. So we see is definitely a cool newsletter that goes out.
Unknown Speaker 45:00
Great, okay, we love those. I'm such a newsletter fan. No, those are wonderful. Awesome. Lots of resources there. Well, thank you just provided a whole page of multiple notes. So that's great. So we'll definitely have to have you back for a part two on the grounding topic. But I so appreciate you taking the time and just dropping all these knowledge bombs for us. And I think it really helps underscore why I so believed that sleep has become a skill in our modern society. This is no longer any topics that you know, that we can take for granted that we just automatically know because not so many people are in this conversation. So thank you for helping to provide this awareness. It's really important right now, especially more than ever.
Unknown Speaker 45:40
Yes. Sleep. Yes. It's number one thing almost for health, isn't it light and sleep and then
Unknown Speaker 45:47
fall into place?
Unknown Speaker 45:48
Absolutely. Oh, my goodness. Well, this has been a pleasure. I really appreciate you taking the time.
Unknown Speaker 45:54
Okay, thank you. You've
Unknown Speaker 45:57
been listening to the sleep is a skill podcast, the number one podcast for people who want to take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday I send out something that I call Molly's Monday obsessions containing everything that I'm obsessing over in the world of sleep. So head on over to sleep as guild comm to sign up