Do you have an inconsistent sleep schedule? Or have your total sleep hours been down recently? Well, this episode is perfect for you! Sleep deprivation can deteriorate your performance over time without realizing it. The ‘slightly sleepy’ feeling could be an indicator of a mounting problem with your sleep. Today we focus in on Rise Science, the app that helps you navigate potential sleep debt and gain insight around your circadian energy schedule throughout the day. Jeff Kahn, the co-founder, and CEO of Rise Science, was the first to publish research on technology-enabled sleep behavior modification over a decade ago, and his work has been featured in The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, and The Wall Street Journal, and on ESPN, NBC, CBS, and Fox Sports. Listen to Sleep is a Skill Podcast of the talk with Jeff Kahn, to learn more how we should let natural sleep powered by the optimization of our brain to get the best rest and energy for our day guided by the Rise Science App.
BIO:
Jeff Kahn is Co-Founder and CEO at Rise Science. The RISE app for better sleep and daily energy is the power behind your next best day.
Jeff and his Rise Science co-founder were the first to publish research on technology-enabled sleep behavior modification over a decade ago, and have recently completed the largest known study on sleep and real-world job performance across the NFL and sales teams.
Jeff's research and work have been featured in The New York Times, Harvard Business Review, and The Wall Street Journal, and on ESPN, NBC, CBS, and Fox Sports. Jeff holds a B.S. in Health Systems Engineering and an M.S. in Engineering Design & Innovation from Northwestern University.
Episode Links:
@rise.science
@jfkahn / @risescience
@risescience
https://www.linkedin.com/in/jeffmkahn/ /
https://www.linkedin.com/company/rise-science/
Show Notes:
💭Jeff’s Story behind His Inspiration on Creating Rise Science
💭Sleep is Like Oxygen
💭The Two Levers to Determine How Awake and Alert Are You
💭How the RISE App Works
💭Everyone Has Their Own Biological Sleep Need
💭RISE’s Support Team Helps You Make Your Sleep Improvement More Accessible
💭The Two Factor Model: Sleep Debt and Circadian Rhythm
💭Losing One Hour of Sleep per Night for a Week Equals to Being at the Legal Limit of Alcohol
💭Do Not Trust Your Own Judgement on Sleepiness: Slightly Sleepy Could be Severely Sleep Deprived
💭This Is Why Everyone Should Have Access to Their Sleep Needs
💭The Combination of Science and Productivity Feature on Rise Science Will Help You Navigate Your Energy Level in Real-Time
💭Jeff’s Nightly Routine and Strategy When Things Don’t Go Right
💭Future Plans for Rise Science and Where You Can Find More Information on Rise Science
Quotes:
“sleep is like oxygen. When you get less sleep than you need every single aspect about how your function starts deteriorating, the same way that if I were to choke you out, that would happen.”
And welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. My guest today is Jeff, the co‑founder and CEO of rise science. And, we're going to give Jeff an opportunity to dive in on a lot of things. And I feel bad for him cause we spoke before we started and he has already shared so much information. I'm like you're dropping so much gold. We're going to, I'm going to have to ask you to say it all again. Cause it was just fantastic. So we had to hit. Record. So here we are. So Jeff would love to hear a bit more about how you got into this industry, part of your background, passion, and, you know, kind of how you got to this place. Yeah. Well, Molly, thanks for having me on. And it's just a huge pleasure for me to get to talk about something I just love and has been, uh, I guess what I've spent most of my waking life on, you know, as my adult years. So, I mean, it started for me really simply back in undergrad and, you know, as an engineering student, you know, epilepsy and counting the book. Separate early in the morning, exhausted just like everyone else was. And I thought, huh, maybe, you know, my sleep might have something to do with how I feel, you know, maybe all this caffeine and all of the supplementation and, you know, trying to figure out why I feel bad. Like maybe sleep has something to do with this. So starting to do sleep science research, and I just had way more questions about how it was working. Then I could find answers for myself. And so I begged my school sleep science department to take me in as an apprentice. And it was then that I actually did my first academic paper on that. Consumer sleep tracking data and informing better sleep habits with that. So super fascinating work. And, um, just again, fell in love with the research academic side of this, and, you know, really fast forward to 2016. And we had all these pro elite level athletic teams asking if an age had to do the same thing for their players. And so, you know, we worked with all these fancy, you know, big names in sports or in the NFL, the NBA and MLB, you know, name a pro team. You've probably worked for them. And, um, around 2018 just decided, you know what? Life is short. And we've got to work on stuff that matters and, and how we spend our time. It's our most limited asset that we, that we have. It's really the only thing that we have. And we wanted to take all of the insights that we've learned from our time in professional athletics, and really democratize that to annually with a mobile phone. And so that's really what we're focused on today and, you know, just frankly, happy to share as much insight as I can on, you know, what, how, why is sleep important? How does it work? How do you get the benefits of it? there's so much mythology out there that hopefully we get to do. Today is, you know, what's, based in evidence and what is bunk and not based in evidence. And, you know, hopefully we can, we can dig into some of those topics. So looking forward to it. Excellent. Yes. And I know you've got lots of, gems of wisdom and training and, evidence‑based background in what you're going to be sharing today. So very excited to dive into more and so I think we could just start at the basics of, okay, so you created this thing. What is this thing that you created and how. How is it helping people to make a difference with that very limited resource of time and the scheduling of the time and the management, their time as it relates to optimizing for their sleep? Sure. So, I mean, look, I think that the next sprint here and in what we do as a human society and culture and races to figure out how we better spend our time. And so when you really back that out and spending time as both quality of time, and then how long you have on the planet to live. So if you look at the set of things that can be. Prove that there's certainly a lot that we know help, but the biggest factor is sleep. And I think if you're listening to this, you probably know that Molly, obviously, you know, that it's been your life experience and it's not surprising to the science sleep science community, either that sleep is the biggest variable there. I think what people misunderstand, what is not known today, which is surprising to me, given the strength of the evidence is how do we get all the benefits from sleep? I mean, sleep is basically like Mark Rose kind is a, a close scientific advisor of mine. You the sleep research center at Stanford and NASA and just awesome, awesome scientists and also, advocate for the field. And he was telling me he's like, Jeff, you know, sleep is like oxygen. Okay. So you said, when you get less sleep than you need every single aspect about how you function starts deteriorating, the same way that if I were to choke you out, that that would happen. So, you know, that part we sort of know, and, and even that is, can be shocking to people. But when you look at how do you get the benefits of sleep? There's a lot of confusion. Yeah. When you get more REM sleep, do I need to get more deep sleep? Do I need to like, Oh my sleep efficiency. Isn't very good. Like my wearables, but telling me that my rent percentage is only at 10%. Like, you know, my latency is two minutes and now I'm exhausted. Like w w do I need to take some new supplement? Oh, I need to do Thermo regulation. Oh, I need to put on these blue lights. Like, there's just so much. So how do you explain that? The days that you feel better and that he's in jail. So luckily for us scientists have figured that out, which has been amazing. Yeah. In my opinion, this is the most important, most central finding in all of sleep science. Uh, and you know, the field has been around for about a hundred years, the first sleep lab I've ever opened back in Chicago in 1925. And so since then, I mean, we've really learned a lot. And there's a theory put out in the early 1980s that basically said, if you wanna understand how awake and alert someone is, you know, or how you're going to feel, there's basically two levers that matter. And there's only two there's actually. We now something called the three factor model and it gets a little more advanced, but the big idea is that there are these two levers that matter. The first is something called sleep debt, which we can get very deep into in a second. Basically, it's measure how sleep deprived you are and the second is something called the circadian rhythm, which I know you've had people on to talk about that. And so if you want to feel better, you can basically reduce your sleep debt or you can rearrange how you spend your day based on your circadian energy schedule. That's it. Everything else is basically what I would amount to, you know, noise. It's small 1%, half percent small differences. And so that's sort of the theoretical foundation and all we need to do, you know, sleep has been evolving for millions and millions of years. What we need to do is figure out how do we get out of the way to let the naturalistic sleep, to let our brains do the optimization that they're designed to do. So that's really in a nutshell, sleep that circadian rhythm get out of the way of nature. You do those three things and you're covering 99% of what you need to do. So I think with that sort of framework in place, we can go super deep on any one of those topics, um, or even, you know, figure out, you know. Okay. So what does all that mean and what do you do every day? And that's sort of a, I'd say the, the crux of the whole thing with sleep. Perfect. Yes. And, okay. So I love that framework as a kind of guiding function for this conversation. And, the, so you created it. This app, knowing that this framework is in the background, what is it look like? just real quick so that people have that, in their mind's eye of, okay, so this is available for me, you know? Yes. We have an app. Yeah. We have an app it's you can get a seven day free trial and for free, we'll tell you how much sleep you need biologically. So, the way it works is, and we'll sort of walk through it and I can share about what we're building, but the way sleep. This is a measure of how sleep deprived you are. It builds up, at least in our research that we've published over about 14 days. There's other research that shows it's about 30 and you can carry up somewhere between 20 to 40 hours of sleep debt acutely. Now there is a Matt Walker says this, but it's also an area where I think people misunderstand what he says. Yeah. I think on the Joe Rogan show, he's like, you know, you can't make up sleep debt it's whatever. And is now like, Oh, sleep that doesn't exist. It's not a real thing. We can talk a little more about why. Why I think he said that, but w what I think he meant to say is you can certainly make up sleep debt in the short term right tonight and reduce your sleep deprivation. It will benefit all of your performance. But if for 20 years, you know, you, haven't, you've gotten way below your sleep need there's longterm effects that we don't know how that sort of gets better over time. And it's just very hard to study and, and for all sorts of reasons, sort of like smoking. So anyway, we can talk more about that later. Great. But everyone has a story. Last week they need, the average is slightly over eight hours. So it's about eight hours and 15 minutes with a 35 minutes standard deviation. Meaning most of us need somewhere between seven and a half and nine, but it's not that like some nights you need seven, some nights you need nine it's that we each have a genetic biological sleep need. So, you know, just like height or my color, you know, my sleep needs eight hours and 20 minutes. So, uh, you know, Molly, your sleep need might be seven hours, seven and a half hours. And that's totally fine. I mean, you'd have a difference. Needs. Um, and so that's when you don't get that need, you build that debt and that debt builds up for about 14 days and last night. Well, it's certainly the most important might only account for somewhere repeat 15 to 20% of the actual waiting today. So, you know, it's not obviously last night matters, but, uh, you know, so did the last 14 nights, so what that does, there's sort of a double‑edged sword on the one hand, you know, if you've been sleeping well and your sleep that's low and you have one bad night, it's totally fine. You're in the middle of the night for a couple of hours tomorrow. You're going to be just great. The flip side is also the case that, you know, if you haven't been getting a lot of sleep, you have super high sleep debt for one night and get eight hours to dose, but it's not going to do you much good either. So it's really taking a much more expansive view about how your sleep is working, how much sleep that you have. you know, before you start to judge yourself, you have to be on how you feel when you wake up or what happened last night, or, you know, any particular, uh, you know, day or night. So it is very, very hard to be aware of how sleep deprived you are and there's. Some good reasons for that, but we can also get into, you know, most people are like, yeah, I'm fine. I feel like I get six or seven and I'm just fine. Um, so we can talk about that too, but that's sleep debt. So what will the rise Apple do is take in your data, uh, over the last few year, whether you have a wearable, if you don't have wearable, we use your phones motion, data to actually estimate your time in bed and how much time you were sleeping. Um, and the actually tell you, Hey Molly, you need seven hours of sleep at night and you've got 11 hours of sleep debt. And Hey, we actually. We are going to help you wind down properly and then put a plan in place to get that sleep debt down. And then we're also going to teach you about your circadian rhythms. So when you have your peaks in energy, your dips in energy, the best time to be sleeping. and it's, it's a sort of, shouldn't be hopefully if we're doing our jobs, right, you know, very easy to understand once you get in there. So I just encourage you to give it a try and you can just type in rise on the app store and you'll see a purple R and you can give it a go. Yes, absolutely. And because. Again, part of our commitment with the sleep as a skill podcast is that each episode, no matter who we're bringing on, no matter what they've created, or, you know, what have you, that we're leaving kind of practical, um, application tips and ways or frameworks to approach this area of sleep and sleep and sleep optimization. And so, so, you know, normally I might not just go straight into like, tell us about this thing. What does this look like? And yet I think it's part of the, um, the conversation, because one it's, there's not much of a barrier. Entry, you can certainly have it tested out for free for the first seven days. And then even if you decide to go all in, we're not talking hundreds. Yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. Really, providing that's why I'm, really excited about what are one of the reasons I'm excited about what you're creating is that coming from a background of having, you know, very, very little money growing up, um, and seeing, you know, this, the difference that, that led to certain lifestyle choices. And what have you to have this opportunity to educate across all? you know, rungs is really, I think, important, and not for nothing. I really also love that the app, the design of it from a UX UI perspective is very, you know, beautiful and fun to use and to utilize. So I think, all of those things together could make it very like a sticky quote unquote, you know, application for bringing this into a part of your day versus like, Oh, nice idea, but not there yet. Or what have you and it's kind of, something that I think is worth a test for, for so many people end, especially then hearing so much of what has gone into it. This wasn't just sort of a like nice idea. Instead it was something that, you know, you've really devoted your whole life to, and the people that you brought on. Yeah, no, I mean, thanks for sharing that. And you know, we've just seen such incredible uptake, uh, with the consumers and they're just really, you know, people are getting it, they understand how important. It isn't like $60 to like fundamentally change your life. You know, it's, uh, while I, while I love meditation, I'm a daily meditator. You know, my sleep is, you know, a hundred X more valuable than my meditation practice. And so, you know, for 60 bucks, for me, it's a no brainer, but, you know, everyone's like what 60? You know? So we have some reviews in the apps where people like $60. I don't want to pay that for an hour. You're like, really? Oh my God. But you know, it's, it's, uh, it's all part of it. And that means we've got literal. We like, I was just a story. Almost brought me to tears, an Uber driver that, um, bought rise lives out of his Uber and has bipolar and through rise realized that when his sleep debt was high would be way more prone to mania, which is also the true base and found in the science. And with just like, this is now something I use every single day. Like it's a tool I can't live without. And so, you know, when someone like that's paying $60, you know, any of us can, right. I mean, we spend more on that. And I'm way more than that in coffee per year. So, uh, and helps us continue to improve the product and, you know, continue to bring more science‑based approaches to, to weave this into what you do every day. So, uh, and if by the way, I would say that if money is a problem and it is the barrier and the reason you can't do it, just send us an email through support and we'll take care of you. it's really important that this isn't about, you know, money should never be the reason that you can't have access to these kinds of scientific tools. And, we want to make sure that anyone can have access. I love that amazing, such a mission driven company mission and a science driven company. So I really appreciate all of that. That's awesome. so I would love to also dive in a bit more to unpack the sleep debt topic, because we really haven't had anyone discussing this at length. And so my concern had, has been for a while of when people start utilizing the term sleep debt, my fear has been how I've seen people. Relate to this is Oh, okay. So I've built up a sleep debt. So almost a kin to like the, social jet lag or what have you. Yeah. You know, whatever, the bunch of the days in the week, I haven't gotten that much sleep, but no worries. I'll make up for it on the weekend, you know, and I'll knock that out. And then that's how I function around my sleep. so I'm hoping you can kind of share more like breaking down, sleep debt a bit more, um, and how to be empowered around this without then really messing up our, that circadian rhythm entrainment that we're looking to. Cultivate, um, by having sort of these like big old, uh, you know, peaks and valleys and our sleep consistency. Yeah, totally. So, I mean, let's sort of break down both piece by piece. So again, let's just get back to the two factor model, right? You've got sleep debt, which is the single most important metric when it comes to how you feel and function and all the goodness around sleep. It's fleek, debt, drip. That's the root cause driver. We also have a circadian rhythm, which is really, really important. So let's just play out for a second. Why, you know, What's gotten at least in your case where you're saying someone builds a bunch of stuff during the week. And then during the weekend, they're like, Oh, I'm going to paddle back. I'm going to sleep in. So what would I would say is, you know, you can do that. Like that's a fine approach. And I think with everything, with sleep, I think what we, what is disempowering is not knowing why things are changing. We're not knowing why you're feeling better, not knowing when you're supposed to feel good. For example, when you wake up in the morning, it's not normal to feel great and have a bunch of energy, right? When you wake up, most people don't know. It takes about an hour and a half to work off of your sleep inertia. So that's actually the third factor in the new updated model called the three factor model, but it takes an hour and a half. So don't judge yourself when you wake up, but getting back to it, if you're sleep, that's really high, you're also not going to feel very good if you're waking up or going to bed at a time, that's way out of sync with your did light melatonin onset. When meaning when you should be going to bed, when you should be waking up, you're also going to not feel very good. So these are all these levers that you sort of need to thinking about together and there's. We know you don't want one size fits all. Once you understand how this actually works, the downside of that sort of a schedule where you pay it back on the weekend is then what you're saying is, you know, Hey, I'm willing. So if you let's say you do that, and obviously it depends on the exact situation, but let's say, you know, you built a bunch of sleep that during the week. Well then during the week, you're not feeling very good. You're not your best self. You're not able to be the best friend, the best partner, the best, you know, parent. So, you know, that's an issue then on the weekend, if you do. And you do get way more sleep than usually get often you can steal away groggier and that's for two fundamental reasons. One is, you're, you're usually till your sleep consistency point, either you are, you know, going to bed your way later and waking up way later, you know, when usually it's waking up way later, that was happening. And so if you're waking up way later, then you're usually now changing and introducing what's called social jet lag, which you brought up, which is that. Now you're getting light at a time that your brain was. Expecting your brain now thinks that it's, you know, a different time zone. And now you're actually encouraging a circadian rhythm shift, which then that night is going to mean that your melatonin window, the optimal time to be sleeping is also pushed back. So, I mean, it's, it's not, it's, it's, it's not what you want to, again, that's what is allowing for that is that we're able to have light, you know, up until whenever we want, we're able to have stimulation up until whenever we want. And this is one of those classic cases where we're getting in the way of our own biology. And so, again, whatever. I encourage you to think about, it's not so hard to do. This is imagine, you know, taking a Saturday, going camping in the woods where you have a cool, dark, comfortable sleeping setup, but you don't have your technology. That's what you want to be thinking about on a nightly basis. So like, you know, and just having sort of healthy food around you, not, you know, drinking wine late at night, not having massive meals late at night, cause that's not how the sleep systems have evolved. And so anytime you now introduce one of those things that screws it up, it's going to get. A way of, you know, naturalistic sleep, which is a term that Matt Walker I think should get credit for. And it's just a great term that we're shooting for naturalistic sleep. We don't need to hack sleep. We don't need to optimize it. My opinion, your brain will self optimize so long as Pat of the damn winning. so, those are kind of a couple different pieces of how that fits together, but, you know, ultimately there's going to be some weeks where it's crazy and you're going to build up a bunch of sleep debt and you're going to want to pay it back on the weekend and you know, that's okay too and so I think ultimately it's just, how are these things working together? And everyone's starting to get much more awareness around what is actually driving the change in how you feel, and then giving everyone the tools to actually make those trade‑offs on a nightly basis. That was so well said. And I haven't heard people respond, kind of term it's sleep systems in that particular way that you just, you dropped a lot of gems in there. So I think that was really, well said for sure. And, I'm wondering if you could share too a bit more for the person that's listening and was like, Oh no, my sleep debt is not just a couple days. It's years and years. Um, do you have a particular kind of approach for people or framework for that? I mean, a lot of people are like, Whoa, so I guess two big observations. One is, yeah. Let's say you're like, okay. I be getting five hours a night for 20 years and you know, I also feel okay. So I don't really, I think I'm maybe just a little sleepy person, but there's also the person. No, no, no, no. I know it hasn't been good. I've still been doing it and like, am I okay, so let's break down both of those. So it is actually researchers this question, because you know, if you go from eight hours of sleep at night to seven, so you lose one hour of sleep at night for a week. At the end of the week, your cognitive performance will be similar to being at the legal limit for alcohol. Yeah. Like one hour sleep loss. So that's seven hours of sleep debt with seven hours of sleep debt. It's basically like you're drunk cognitively. So. That's one of the reasons that fatigue driving is, you know, bigger cause of, of traffic deaths than, than drunk dropping. but research has asked the question, how is it that you can be walking around the legal limit for alcohol and not know it? You know, when you're hungry, like you are hungry and you feel it and you will be angry to like go and chase down food, you know, or when you're thirsty, same thing when you're sleep deprived, unless you're really, really sleep deprived. You're like, yeah, I feel okay. I'm a little sleepy, so what's going on. So if you look at, uh, the there's one Fasten paper that, that looked at this directly, and they basically had three groups of people, they had one group getting, you know, eight hours every night, they had one group getting six, they were getting four and then they measured two things. One was something called the KSS, which is a measure of subjective sleepiness. second was, they measured something called the psychomotor vigilance task. So it's a measure of how alert your brain is. And they looked at what. It happened over to everyday. So if you're in that, you know, eight hour group for the next 14 days, you got eight hours and then they measure those two tasks every day. If you're in the six hour group, they, they would also do the same thing. You know, you get six hours every day for in the four hour group, you get four hours every day. You see something really interesting. If you look at the subjective, how people rate themselves. And it's about, I don't quote me on exactly any questions that are in this test, but you get scored on a scale of one to four or by day three, whether you were in that. Yeah. You know, sticks our group of the four hour group. You didn't feel any more sleepy between day three and day four 14. So what does that mean? I mean, if you're getting four hours a night for three nights by that third, fourth night, you're like, all right. Yeah, I'm slightly sleepy. And by the way, the, for our group reported, they scored about a two on this, a little over two that's feeling slightly sleepy. So what this tells you is like you can get four hours. What we'd expect based on the data is if you get four hours a night for three nights, you will tell me that you're slightly sleepy and you won't. Feel any more tired as you continue to build up sleep debt. Now, if we look at your objective performance, what you see is that it continues to just get worse over time. So it doesn't level off your brain never adapts the level of sleepiness surrender you're telling yourself you're okay, but in actuality, your objective performance is just continuing to get worse and worse and worse. And so what's the takeaway here. One is don't trust your own judgment of how sleepy you are too. There's a famous sleep scientist named build a mat. The class at Stanford for many, many years called sleep in dream teams and build a men's one of the sort of, uh, really pioneers in sleep science. And one of the taglines from this class, which is genius is drowsiness is red alert, which is that if you feel slightly sleepy, that means you are severely sleep deprived. Now that should both jolt you to action, but you should also feel excited because you have so much better to feel and so much better to perform. Just by getting a little bit more sleep. So that's really, really exciting. You know, if you're feeling anxiety, you're feeling, um, you know, a little bit depressed. You're not feeling yourself. You're not feeling, you know, empathetic, like you normally are. You're not feeling creative and you're feeling slightly sleepy. The place to start is getting your sleep right. It will only help you go in the right direction and get that nailed first and then start talking about everything else. Uh, and so that's, that's sort of, uh, I don't know, Tangent, but yeah, no, that's perfect. I love that so many gems in there. and so from that place, what I think is really interesting too, is it's this weird paradox in that, we have these signaling mechanisms. We can't necessarily, to your point and to other's points, trust our own signaling mechanisms per se, because, unless we know what to look for, like you're, you know, speaking to an educator right. Slightly. Exactly. So, so one, you know, we can certainly educate and start to know what to look for. And then on the other hand of it, I think what's really important about what you're creating, you know, sleep is a skill we're really, big on this intersection between technology, accountability and behavioral change to influence sleep. and so at the same time of that naturalistic kind of sleep approach, but then also the cat's kind of out of the bag with technology, we're surrounded by so much stimuli. And so at the same time, it seems that technology kind of can actually be, um, we can have a happy marriage at the same time, from a perspective of utilizing, this piece of, pieces of tech to make a difference with our behaviors. so then, so from a day‑to‑day perspective then would you have people relate to this, to the app that you've created? And I know you've got lots of different things of what you're going to be, I'm sure. You know, there's such a visionary that I'm sure all kinds of things coming and we're having you, but for right now, Then can lean into that and start to use this as a bit of a guide each day with your day. And then how based on how you're waking up the drowsiness level, you know, and then actually adjusting your day to fit, where you're at and then where you want to be. Yeah, no, I mean, our view is like every single person on the planet should have access to how much sleep that they have, every single on the planet, just like they know their eye color and their height. They should know what their sleep need is. Everyone should know their energy peaks and dips on a daily basis. Should know there what's inside here, world's called dim light melatonin onset. But when your brain is producing melatonin under dim light, which is sort of a, you know, the biologic triple time window to be sleeping, we call it melatonin window in the app. but those are just things that everyone should have access to. Right? Because without that, it's very hard to be aware of what's actually happening and what to do. And as things change and your sleep changes, you know, and you stay up, I've got a 22 month old daughter, you know, she keeps me up late at night, like. Your life is so dynamic. And so you need to rely on tools that can help you. And, you know, look, I think our view is that technology is, you're saying great potential for good and for bad. And consumer technology is one of the greatest forces on the planet for change, right? I mean, look at Facebook, look at Instagram, look at tick talk. You know, the amount of time we spend on that stuff is just mind‑boggling and its potential for good or for bad. And so, you know, because we're there, that's why we think about that such a key place. Own, and really help people, you know, take advantage of their technology for good and, you know, and, and that's something that we're really motivated to do. So, so yeah, I mean, I think you're right on that. It's, it's a kind of a combination of like, you got to understand the educational piece behaviors and the core of this. And I absolutely believe, you know, technology can help. I'm absolutely on the camp of like wearables can be great if you use the data in the right way and understand the data in the right way, it can be an incredible help. Incredibly helpful tool, things like, you know, blue, blue light blocking glasses, things like really comfortable sleep mask, things like, you know, all of that stuff can help and we need all of that to help, you know, it's not going to be just one thing that is going to be able to solve all of this. So, yeah, absolutely. And I think that your app does a great job of parsing out that information because so many people could listen. I'm like, well, I don't need all that. You know, just sleep is natural. It's primal, you know? Yeah. Yeah. And yet I think, To help educate of how many things just that we're interacting with on a day‑to‑day basis. And from a societal societal perspective is influencing our behaviors in ways that we just have not evolved to be able to, have, uh, not impact our sleep, uh, regularly. So, so what you're doing, like our, our evolution has actually evolved us so that we're numb to the effects of sleep deprivation, because we sh like before a hundred years ago, there was no electric lighting in the mass market. And it got dark. And so you have candle lights, like I'd encourage, you actually did this in college. I'd walk around the house that I lived in, in college with a jar candle I bought from Amazon. I took a shower with it. I actually still do it. Now I can tell you about my whole nighttime routine, but like, we're going to get there for sure. Turn off all of your lights and just walk around with a candle and you will be like shocked and have sleepy. You feel how much better you sleep and so, you know, are we actually evolved to, to when we needed to, to, you know, Uh, be up for, you know, 20 hours a day because we were escaping some sort of danger. That was that. That's what we evolved to do. And so it's a great evolutionary mechanism. It just does not serve as well in today's day and age. Oh, I'm so glad you mentioned the candle thing. Cause we had a, anthropologists on who also spoke to, uh, he's a professor out of, uh, Toronto and would give, uh, the, the suggestion or urging or challenge a candlelight. Challenge to his students and, you know, 0.0, Oh, or what have you, if people would actually ever take him up on this challenge to, for at least two weeks post sunset, just utilize, just have a camp, just use candle candlelight as your main primary light source. And then notice the effects of exactly what you were saying. And one, so few people will actually do that, but if you do do that, please, if you're listening, give that a shot. but then beyond that, then just to begin to notice how many things that we might be a blind. Spot to us are actually influencing our biology is really important. and one quick thing before we get in, because I absolutely want to hear more about your relationship to your sleep and how you manage this. and then just real quick from a even productivity perspective. And then throughout the day outside of sleep, on the app, there's lots of guidance of how to kind of maximize energy States. I was wonder if you could talk a little bit about that from even, you know, a lot of entrepreneurs tend to listen to this or. People that have the ability to make their own schedule. and even if you can't make your own schedule, you're not, you know, out of this conversation, but how to utilize, your time, officially. Yeah. So, you know, look, sleep debt as much as it's great to be able to control it, you know, through behavior. There's just going to be times when you can't, you know, there's just, life is going to get in the way for a variety of different reasons. And so when that's the case, you know, you can rely on your circadian rhythm to sort of cope and make it through the day as best as possible. And so. What's neat about the circadian rhythm and I'll just give super high level overview for everyone listening. You know, you've got a part in the brain called the SCN, the super charismatic nucleus controls at a cellular level. And this is kind of an amazing way to think about it. But if you remember back to high school biology ATP, and that's, what's being actually generated by the mitochondria in your cells and sort of ATP is the sort of fuel for all of your cells. Literally the SCN is controlling at a metabolic level, how much ATP is produced, you know, over, over the day. So. Uh, what this means circa IDN. So circa is Latin for around the end is Latin for day. So it's this around a day, a rhythm of all of our functioning. So everything emotional, everything, physiological, everything, cognitive, all sort of correlates with what's happening with this SCN either sort of upregulating those things. So more energy, uh, you know, better emotional outcomes, better physiological outcomes, you know, better you know, relationships. better cognitive outcomes or it's, down‑regulating it, you're a little bit sleepier. Your energy is not as good. You know, all of those things are in the down direction. And so what, when you know that and know how those are shifting on a daily basis, cause they do, they can change back to an hour a little bit more than that every day. that's going to then shift. Well, when should you have a hard meeting with a spouse? When should you have a hard meeting with a coworker colleague? When should you work on that big project? That like is the big rock you need to move that week? When should you have your sort of more admin tasks that are like, you know, catching up on expenses or, you know, the stuff that just like, doesn't take your full brain power. When should you go grab lunch? And since we're all at home during COVID right now, so like a lot of these, just like very basic questions by rearranging your day. you're going to get this huge gain in terms of outcome. And so you'll, you've seen it in a business role. I think there's this whole kind of like movement now towards managing energy, not time that it's not about eight hours in your seat. It's about like, what's the outcome. How do you get there most, most smartly. And you know, if you're, you're trying to answer that question, that circadian rhythm is where you start now. You know, if you look at an, all the apps in the app store, you know, there has been a great way of visualizing that I'm using that as a tool everyday for productivity, and that's what we're trying to make happen. So, you know, we want to be both, you know, very rigorous on science and how we're doing the modeling. but we also want to make it really easy for you to be able to use on a daily basis to help client your day and know, Hey, I'm going to be groggy from nine to 10. 30 my morning, peak is going to be between noon and one 30. My dip is going to be between X and Y and actually my wind down, I need to finish work by nine 30 and we'll text you, Hey, Jeff, stop working. Start your wind down routine, you know, and, and, and get ready for your melatonin window, which tonight is between 1130 and 1230. So, you know, it's, it's all kind of comes together. And then when you know that, what it sort of unlocks is that if you've, you know, I think everyone listening. It was probably heard of a bunch of sleep, hygiene, hacks, and tips and all sorts of stuff. Those usually only work well when they're actually based on your circadian rhythm. So for example, like don't drink caffeine. Well, that's a generally good thing to do, but like I love coffee. Most people really love coffee. And so the question is like, well, when should I stop coffee? So that it doesn't actually interfere with my melatonin onset or like, Hey, I actually want to watch Netflix. How much Netflix should I watch so that it doesn't interfere with me. Hitting my melatonin window or, Hey, I want to work out when's the best time to do that so that I can get the most out of my day and not interfere with my peaks. So like all of this stuff, once it sort of is layered onto your circadian rhythm starts to make a lot more sense. versus just saying like, Oh, don't have big meals before bed. And because it's not specific. And I know near, probably near, y'all talked about this, like you need a trigger and the trigger needs to be personalized and based in something real, and that's, that's sort of what we're able to do. And, and. That's bringing that technology. So, um, that's sort of how to think about, about that, but yeah, it's absolutely part of how I work. Oh, I love well, so I think we can shift gears to you a little bit to kind of learn through, learn by example, um, of what, and I'm not saying that, you know, I'm sure you're evolving on your, some of the habits that you have and testing different things and I'd imagine. but at the same time, just kind of like where you're at a snapshot of where you're at, as it relates to your sleep right now. I think will be really interesting. Um, so, so for a couple of questions, as it relates to that is just the first one. What does your nightly sleep routine look like? You know, and we ask these questions because, presumably if you're on a podcast like this, most of the people that are showing up here are really invested in sleep. And certainly you are, uh, someone that has been for years and years, just immersed in this world, uh, you so much so that you've created a company around this or co co founded. And CEO. And, um, so from this place, what is it that you're doing with your nightly sleep routine? What does that look like? Yeah, so I will tell you, I am in my afternoon dip right now, so I, Oh, we should have scheduled differently. No. Sorry about that. I have a Calendly integration that I can schedule meetings in my peaks, in my dips. Ooh, wait a minute. Tell me more. Wait, tangents side note. Is that available in the app or is that something you built? Right now it's internal energy level. I can see where they are and their circadian, you know, uh, day, you know, no one to have conversations, I'll ask stuff. So I've got three hours of sleep debt. Oh my goodness. Perfect. I am so interested in that option as well. Yeah. I'm going to want to hear more about that. That's amazing. So I've got three hours of sleep debt right now, which for me is actually pretty decent. it's not, you know, I like to be. I like to be three or under personally, that's when I start to feel really good when I get between three and five. I know that that night sleep really needs to become a top priority. So like, I'm just bingeing, Peaky blinders right now. I love it. Wind down. It's an incredible show. and so like my night routine is actually I get a text from rise, um, at around six o'clock that tells me what, when I should stop working, tells me, you know, when I should be like winding down and getting ready when I should take care of my personal chores. So, you know, today, They all basically stopped working or a typical day for me is I stopped work and I like to put my work away and then, and do, as I rise also helps you do this, but, um, there there's some, uh, emerging science around sort of how you plan your wind down routine. So one of the things that we really try and focus on is, and that I, you know, we all do at rise, you know, pretty religiously as we say, okay, what's like the most like challenging or sort of most like, maybe stressful thing you have to get done. Maybe it's like, for me, it's like, you know, making dinner. Making sure I'm taking care of my personal chores, you know, cleaning up all that sort of stuff. I do that during the later part of my evening dip. So that basically from, you know, let's call it for me about nine to 10 30 is like my time, like Clara's down, she's sleeping. I can hang out with my wife. We can watch a show. I'm doing my orange glasses on or there's great science might orange glass because I can send you the link to the ones we like. so I'm, I'm putting those on about an hour and a half before bed and then. Um, for me, uh, one of the things that I find both enjoyable, and I think the science is actually reasonably strong on is, I think it's quick a scientific term, which is kind of funny as passive water‑based heating, which is just taking a hot shower or bath. Yes. But turns out that like, you know, that has some thermoregulation benefits that, that, help you fall asleep and stay asleep a little bit better. So I like to get bath. I like to throw, I have my orange glasses on and, uh, and then I'm watching Peaky blinders to just like, relax. Chill out. And then, you know, I'm getting in bed, usually around somewhere within my melatonin window, but I'm thinking about my sleep debt to know like, okay, what do I have tomorrow? Like, is it super important day? Or like, can I stay up a little bit later? Cause that, you know, and, and hang out, can I not? So sleep debt becomes this sort of very important metric for me to help inform the trade off between like, do I want more sleep or do I want to stay up and hang out and watch more shows or hang out with my wife or talk with him? Friends or whatever that is. So that's sort of a little sample of, of how I do it, but I got my orange glasses on. I throw on my sleep mask, the Alaska bear to strap with nose baffle. We've tried pretty much all of them. I think that's the most comfortable that we found. And, um, and then, you know, temperature is usually for, for my wife and I, we like it at 68. Uh, and you know, then we're going to actually put in earplugs, I live near a freeway. We can talk about sound control later. So I throw in ear plugs and then, you know, I'm up later. Set an alarm. And I try not to then set any important meetings till at least, you know, 10 to 11 o'clock, uh, where I know that I'm gonna be through my grogginess period. And I do actually a morning run to kind of complete the routine. very soon upon waking to get sunlight, to basically reset my circadian rhythm for that night to get a stronger melatonin release that night. And it's, uh, it's just it. Yeah. I love the routine. It gets me out. It helps, um, sort of, uh, uh, mask the feeling of grogginess. Yeah. I get out and get some exercise, which is good, generally good thing to do. And, um, you know, that gives me sort of a time to like listen to a podcast or listen to a book or, and also reset my circadian rhythm. So that's sort of, for me, uh, how I, how I think about it. I love that. That was so, um, multi‑faceted cause you didn't just stop at the night part. You actually, cause it is so it's a bookend experience. Yeah. That's fantastic. In the middle of the night, if I wake up, which is common, you know, there's a lot going on. That's exciting. I'll be up thinking about something or I'll just be stressed about something and I'll be up like two nights ago. I was up for two and a half hours in a little bit night, and I had a really important meetings the next day, but I was like, you know what, I'm going to like, get something called stimulus control. which if you, you know, battle insomnia, maybe you, you, you know, learned about it, but yeah, I get out of bed. I go do something else. I just, honestly, wasn't tired for two and a half hours went back to bed, you know, I got, I think six and a half hours of sleep total that day. I think I had about four. And a half hours of sleep debt total when I woke up and that's okay. Like I wasn't beating myself up. I wasn't like, that's how I was showing up that day. And I knew that, Oh, I'm a little anxious. Yeah. Probably cause of my sleep, that's a little bit higher than normal then made sure that that night was a priority. So that's sort of how I think about it, even when things don't go. Right. I love that because that's very helpful because of course we're all going to have a dynamic nature for sleep. And uh, certainly since I'm such a obsessive nut that I. I think I seem to attract a lot of people that are trying to put things into pers you know, a perfect sleep, routine or outcomes. And then the truth is that that just doesn't really happen in life. So, I think that's fantastic that you are pointing to that and then how to manage within their end, not get, you know, kind of disempowered along the way, or have any sort of like no CBO effect. Uh, and when you look at those results and instead, just so you use them to be informed about your choices. So that's awesome. Um, and having said that, yeah. We answered some of this, but the next question is what is on your either literal or proverbial nightstand, you know, gadgets, supplements, uh, apps. What have you totally. So obviously rise. I'm using, I use mostly the widget. So the widgets, like on my home screen, I don't have a widget it's you can see it in the top there. Yeah. Okay. I see. Yes. Yeah. Perfect. So it'll tell me when, where I am my energy schedule and it'll tell me how much sleep. That I have. And so that helps keep on top. And then I also have it on my watch so I can see a watch toggle. I can just take a quick glance and say, okay, I'm like, I'm ramping up. Here's as much sleep that I have. You know, I don't want to remember to open up an app and sometimes I forget, so it's just super helpful to have it where, where I am. So that's what I'm using there. I've been using the Apple watch for sleep detection and I'm using the native tracking mostly because I don't want the REM and deep sleep data. Is it not accurate? To even if it was accurate. I mean, it was very, yeah, if you're it, I'd probably do it just because I want the data cause I'm a nerd about it. But I also know Janie's ICER did a fantastic paper on this, basically showing that there's no amount of REM and deep sleep data that predicts how you feel when you wake up and sort of sleep satisfaction. So, you know, in my opinion, that stuff is important. If you're a scientist, you know, and you're studying this stuff, but not important if you're just trying to feel better. So I don't look at it and I actually applaud Apple for. Going in that direction. I mean, they, I think you had Jamie's ICER on and he even mentioned, he's like, well, I don't know. I fit bitch started showing, you know, sleep staging, and now everyone's doing it or I move. And I mean, we love those, those tools and they're, they're great, but like, it's so misleading and people are worried about their REMS low and they're deep, slow, and it's like, you know, there's a lot that anyway. Yeah. My sleep quality score, as Jamie said, like, I don't even know what sleep quality is. No one is asleep. And I'm glad you're speaking to that because I I'm often just about every, you know, podcast or whatever I go on to is really speaking to, I'm, I'm continually shocked at how many people and, you know, people that has have been, um, you would think would know, don't know just how inaccurate some of those sleep, class, you know, categorizations are on so many of these wearables and we'll really, really look to these and, Oh, wow. I got to optimize my deep sleep or my. Are all of these sorts of things and it's kind of, um, it can have ill effects for sure. Yeah. Yeah. It's just not, you know, your brain, I mean, the short answer is you probably have people that are using all this stuff. The short answer is that like get natural six sleep, get out of the way your brain is self optimized. Exactly how much you need. So like do not mess with it. Don't think you need to optimize it. Your brain's doing it and get out of the way. So, you know, that's what, so even if it was perfectly accurate, which again, Jamie did in his lab, he, they, they did. Gee, it's wholly accurate and brought in top machine learning scientists tried to figure out, could we predict how people feel this stuff you can't. And he did it as sort of like a, Hey, we want to make a point that everyone that's trying to sort of read into this sleep staging data that there's not a, there it's not, that's not what, that's not the end metric to focus on. If you want to care, if you care about how you're going to function the next day. Awesome. It's called the two factor model. That's what to focus on. Yeah, absolutely. And just because again, you're, so in this conversation, I'm curious your thoughts on some of the other metrics that people often look to to indicate recovery and what your, how you might relate to any of these. So as it relates to, heart rate, variability H um, heart rate, body temperature, respiratory. Yeah, I know. I mean, look, we used to work with professional athletic teams where like every single data point matter, they were depending on our data every single day for training. Games. And we used to have under mattress sensors where we got beat to be like, I've literally written machine learning algorithms to figure out like, which HRV algorithm we're going to use and how to give feedback against it. And like, you know, doing sleep staging and sleep detection, like, you know, I've literally like, see I've done that work. And so it's not like, I don't know that field. And it is important if you're trying to optimize fitness. Right. So like HRV, um, is really just a measure of your, of sort of, it's giving you a window into like how. Active is your stress response system and stressors can come from lots of different areas. You know, you're sick, you've got a lot on your mind. You ended up having a really hard workout. All that's going to show up in your HRV. It doesn't tell you if it's good or bad. So it doesn't make a value judgment. All it's saying is, Hey, your stress response system is active. And so oftentimes what it really takes is pretty deep context about what that HRV means in relation to what you're actually doing. But it doesn't answer any question of if you're good or not good or all it's giving. Right. Window into, but Hey, your stress response system is active. So it really, really takes a lot more kind of deep expertise and analysis to figure out what you should do with that. And yeah, if you're in an NFL team and you have a team of, of sports scientists that are analyzing the data and they know exactly how much you've lifted and exactly how many units you've ran, you know, in the last I literally every single day, they know what the temperature is like all of that, then yeah. You can make a better informed judgment, but, you know, I would say again, it's not, if you're trying to optimize fitness, it's a usage. Indicator. but if that's not your goal, I wouldn't spend much time there personally, but again, I think it's interesting and yeah, I'm a nerd about this stuff, so I like to have it too, but you know, I, it's not something I'd think about looking at every day, uh, if you're, unless you're, if you're not training, you know, seriously. Got it. Okay, great. so that was perfect. And then, uh, for the last question is, uh, what has been one of your biggest kind of sleep aha moments or biggest change to your sleep? Yeah. I mean, for me, yeah. the first one was this realization that kind of all the things that are out there and products and supplements and like it all comes down to the two factor model. So when you think about how you should spend your time, you should think about, is it going to help me with my sleep debt or is it going to help me better arrange my day with my circadian rhythm? Like those are the two questions. So again, if you're going to spend $2,000 on a mattress, is it going to help me reduce my sleep debt? Is it gonna help me rearrange my day based on my Circadia and then, well, it's not gonna do anything with your circadian rhythm. So then the question is going to help you with your sleep debt. So here's a quote, here's an area where it might, let's say your mattress is so uncomfortable that you're waking up a bunch of middle of the night, right? So now your total sleep time is decreased relative to your need, and now you're building up sleep debt. And so if that new mattress is comfortable to wear, now, you're not waking up in the middle of the night, then yeah. It's gonna help your sleep debt. You're actually gonna feel better and perform better. Other than that, just a matter of comfort and preference. Like what chair do you like sitting in? So, you know, but I think there's, you know, hundreds of millions. The dollars spent on, on the sort of hardware industry about, Oh, if you just use our pillow or use our sleep system or use our bed, you are going to magically feel better in the morning and that's how you should feel. And if you don't, it's because you need to buy more stuff. And that is like, just so far from the truth. There's just no evidence that supports that, you know, in the last a hundred years. So, you know, again, just bring it back, like it's sleep debt and circadian rhythm is the tool that you're buying into going to help you with those things. If yes. Cool. No, you know, spend at your own will you're, you know, you can decide to spend what you want, but you're not going to get the outcome that you're hoping for. so that's, that's how I would think about, you know, just all of that sort of stuff. And so for me, the F that was the first big unlock. The second big unlock was actually something that I haven't put into practice until maybe more recently is that, um, just being much more disciplined about my wind down routine and actually how important that is for me, especially as I get older and. It's more important as you get older and as your sort of sleep system gets more sort of finicky insensitive or your own sleep, biology gets more sensitive that like having that routine limiting blue light, encouraging naturalistic sleep, you know, is so essential. And, uh, I think there's a lot, a lot of work to do there, but that's been the other kind of big thing for me that I've invested in and tried to stay disciplined to. And, uh, and sort of those two things together have been pretty powerful. So that's amazing. Wow. So much there. Um, and especially appreciate the, um, emphasis on, uh, running your life from, uh, an up being run by, but the lens by which you kind of view how you're setting up your day from a circadian perspective, uh, cause it's really what we're speaking to. It's sleep as a skill is so much of this concept around circadian rhythm entrainment, uh, on a regular basis. And what you're speaking to is really, really powerful. And just even if we stepped into that alone and then bringing in this next layer of sleep debt, Into this conversation to kind of, um, uh, underscore certain times when we really want to further prioritize more than we already are sleep, in our management of our days is just so huge. And I think going to be transformative. And actually I have a one last question for you, yeah. Hit me with whatever you want to ask. Well, you know, just, I think because you're so, um, passionate clearly on this topic and informed, uh, I'm curious just since you dreamed up this app, um, what you see. Ahead as other possibilities or potential, like, I love what you said about that Calendly integration that like really piqued my interest. what do you see just, and this is just your own thoughts, um, as from a vision perspective of what could be possible from these, uh, the utilization, whether it's with your app or, what's coming with sleep tech and management of our life. Well, yeah, no, it's a great question. Um, well I guess let me first kind of dispel one myth, which is like, we are not geniuses. Yeah. the two factor model. Like I didn't come up with it. It's not a score I made up. It's like guys like Jamie and there's incredible scientists that have dedicated their entire careers to understanding this fuel. So one wish that I have for the future of sleep products is they are based in actual signs, not on their marketing website saying we're based in science, but like they can call up Jamie and be like, Hey Jamie, here's what we're doing. And here's why, and here's what's going on behind it. And he's like, like, like you should be able to get up in front of a room of sleep scientists and be able to. Have them be like, yes, that makes sense. So that's the first thing, which is like, just, can we, can we get that right? So I'd say the second thing is that, you know, we're in conversation with our customers, you know, we, we don't know the right way and we didn't know the right way to communicate, sleep debt and circadian rhythm and to do that quickly and how to do it in people's lives. We didn't know. And the product didn't work when we first launched it. And it just took literally hundreds and hundreds of iterations and begging users to get on the phone with us. Talking with them about how they're using it, what they like, what they like. And so, you know, our team has just done an incredible job talking to customers and understanding how we can help them. And so it's this combination of both light, you know, deep commitment to sleep science that exists deep commitment to what we know about behavioral science that exists and what our customers are experiencing. And then there's the magic of bringing that all together. And that's, you know, something that as a company, we take a lot of pride in, in doing as, as good as we can, uh, because we know that it. Will have such a big impact on what everyone that decides to spend their money and their time to focus with us. and so, you know, we think about what's next, like the cop‑out answer as well. We're just gonna find out together with our customers, but I'll say the biggest thing that they've been asking for, and what we're seeing is that as people begin to trust the energy schedule more and seek that more people become much more like, Hey, just like I'm literally holding up like my calendar to like my energy schedule. Like, can you just like put it on my calendar? Like I use calendar. Like, I don't want it to think about it. Can you just like integrate it with Calendly? So you'll see us do a lot of things around, you know, really helping people make it easier to weave into their own life. That's why we're on the Apple watch now. That's why we're on the widget. You know, we'll be building into desktop, like when we really want to make this something that's, you don't have to think about it and it's just where you want it to be. and so that's, I would say the big asks that we're getting the other thing, frankly, is if you look at our reviews or if you use the app, like we are not a reliable app. Like things go down. Like the data is inaccurate sometimes like notification soft working, like we've just had so much demand that like, we can't keep up. And so we're doubling down and investing on making sure that everything we do is reliable, that it's performance I'd be happy to support. So just getting a lot of the basics, you know, really, really dialed in is something that we want to get right into. So that's really the things we're focused on right now. I love that. And if you're, so I'll just put in my. I, request as a user too, is I'm curious to, since, since we're dreaming up all these things, I'm curious if you could ever for women's health perspective and women's optimization of, you know, times of the month, because of course, then we have a whole other in fraidy and rhythm to bring into the conversation. So I know we complicate things, but yeah, no, it's, you know, it's something that we hear about and it's something that we get a lot of feedback on and it's something that we frankly need to, to do more. Or there's a great book on sort of specific women's health issues and sleep that is not the Oxford handbook, but it's just sort of that technical manual in that area. And, just something that we'd like to solve for, and, you know, a big percentage of our customers are women. So we tend to be solving right now. We've solved for everyone and we need to then get more that it's nuanced down the road. Oh, totally. Yeah. And I wouldn't request it if it wasn't already clear that you're working on some really cool things. So I'll just. You know, throw another thing at you, see what can come out. So, wow. I, this has just been awesome. I've been blown away by the, you know, I already had, curiosity and interest in, respect for the app that was, you know, that you guys have built. And now, after speaking with you, even more, uh, kind of enrolled in what you guys are creating and can't wait to see what else is, what else is coming. Wow. Thank you. And yeah, if we can help be, be of help or supportive, um, I'd say the only plug that I have. We have a lot of things I talked about on our website for free, and we have a sleep guide where we're trying to basically take all this information, make it consumable, easy to act on, link out to all the scientific papers and sort of make this information accessible for people. Because if right now it's like this company says that that company says this. Everyone is science‑based, you know, and it's like, what the heck do you do today? So we're trying to just do our job to, to share as much of this information. Can and do it in a way that hopefully is easy to understand, but also, you know, deeply based in the science. And I'll let you go as deep as you want to go. And you started to, answer some of the questions I was going to ask you, which was, so assuming after this whole conversation, people want to know more, uh, we've been talking about this app, like what are some of the best ways to, uh, one download the app to, to learn more about what you guys are up to play, social media platforms, all the things. Rise.science. If you want to go to our website, um, we have the sleep guide up there. You can download the app on Android or, or on the list, just type in rise and we should pop up and we're purple are, we are on Twitter, we're getting more active there. Um, and then on Instagram, we'll post quite, uh, you know, we've posted like educational stuff and what's happening. And so you can follow us there too. So, excellent. Well, we will put that all in the show notes. and then I know you mentioned. Um, your preferred, uh, blue blockers would love to, you know, include that too. I think that's great. A lot of people that's like such a big question. Uh, so, uh, so we will include all that for sure. Um, but I so appreciate you taking the time to share all this information with us. And I'm also clear out of our conversation that this was like a sliver of the information that you have acquired on this topic. So I'm looking forward to more to come. Yeah. Thanks for having me. And thanks for putting, putting it all the time to get this to people's ears. I appreciate it. Awesome. Well, thank you so much.