In this episode, Mollie is joined by Nick Coetzee, an entrepreneur focused on helping people improve their sleep quality using red light therapy. Nick explains the mechanisms by which red light exposure can help with a variety of issues, including autoimmune disorders and protection from the sun’s UV rays. He also explains the importance of blue light blockers and optimizing exposure to natural light. His organization, Mychondria, focuses on encouraging people to try red light therapy and explore the variety of health benefits. Show Notes: 🔴 Nick’s story and what led him to create his organization 🔴 Why did they focus on red light therapy 🔴 The mechanisms by which red light therapy can help to improve sleep 🔴 How Nick reduces blue light exposure before sleep and his sleep routine 🔴 When to use red light therapy 🔴 Choosing a red light device 🔴 Nick discusses how red light therapy can increase testosterone levels and improve fertility 🔴 Infrared exposure for protection from the sun’s UV rays 🔴 Infrared exposure for reducing inflammation 🔴 Nature is your compass when it comes to health Bio: Nick Coetzee is the founder of Mychondria, a red light therapy company. He has a BSc in Sports Science (undergraduate) and a BSc Hons. in Biokinetics (postgraduate). PODCAST SPONSOR: SoulCBD https://www.mysoulcbd.com/sleepisaskill
🔴 Nick’s story and what led him to create his organization
🔴 Why did they focus on red light therapy
🔴 The mechanisms by which red light therapy can help to improve sleep
🔴 How Nick reduces blue light exposure before sleep and his sleep routine
🔴 When to use red light therapy
🔴 Choosing a red light device
🔴 Nick discusses how red light therapy can increase testosterone levels and improve fertility
🔴 Infrared exposure for protection from the sun’s UV rays
🔴 Infrared exposure for reducing inflammation
🔴 Nature is your compass when it comes to health
Bio:
Nick Coetzee is the founder of Mychondria, a red light therapy company. He has a BSc in Sports Science (undergraduate) and a BSc Hons. in Biokinetics (postgraduate).
PODCAST SPONSOR: SoulCBD https://www.mysoulcbd.com/sleepisaskill
And welcome to the sleep as a skill podcast. Nick, I am so grateful that you're able to take the time on another side of the planet to actually have this conversation today. So thank you so much for being here. Thanks, Molly.
I'm really excited to talk to you guys and, uh, yeah. Talking about sleep and light is absolutely up my alley. So really excited to talk to your audience about some of that content today. Oh, absolutely. I mean already in our kind of preamble. Before we started recording, I, it already became very abundantly clear that we've got some synergy and similar stories around sleep and light. So I think, um, it can, it can make a lot of sense to begin at the beginning and to hear a bit of your story, uh, of how you got to this place, how you've become kind of a thought leader in this area around, uh, light sleep health, uh, and read how you've transformed your own life. And as it relates to those things, Yeah. So, um, I originally studied, um, a BSC in sport science, and then I did a postgraduate in biokinetics. Um, and in this is I started studying in 2013 and, um, I never used to be healthy at all. I've just ate whatever I wanted got away with most things was able to kind of skim through high school. Um, and then when I got to university, I got this, you know, slap a reality, realizing, you know, I needed to up my performance. Um, and I basically, within my first semester of studying, I didn't quite make it. I fell to my subjects actually. Um, and you know, a lot of my friends and family and my loved ones had these like really high expectations they thought I was going to do really well. And the equity realized that turned into me, letting a lot of people down. So in 2013, I started looking into the whole field of biohacking and this was, you know, just to like level up my performance, make sure I could show up as my best self for both myself and for those who loved and cared for me. Um, and I quickly realized that there were so many things outside of just diet and exercise that we were not looking at, you know, diet and exercise. Most of us are looking at it and probably getting it about 80%. Right. But then when I started looking at all these different fields, one thing I'd never paid attention to was sleep. Um, and what I very quickly realized is when it comes to sleep, you know, the most important factor we've got all these different factors that basically can optimize our sleep pattern, um, or let's say your circadian rhythm and of all of these factors, the most important one was light. And I was shocked when I started doing the research and seeing all these different, you know, areas of, of health that no one was really looking at. I realized how far gone we are from nature. I mean, when we talk about food yeah. A lot of people approach it in a, you know, they use like a paleo approach. What did our ancestors eat when we started looking at our live environment and we start comparing that to what we evolved to live on that and the type of life we would have been exposed to if we were outside in nature. And we compare that to what's inside, we see that there's this huge kind of disconnect between us and nature and you know, all the different fields. When I was, you know, looking at biohacking, I was optimizing my diet, my exercise, and all these fields. What I, what I very quickly realized was optimizing my life environment is probably the most important thing that I. I looked at, um, and after my studies, I started practicing as a biokinetics cyst, which is probably something similar to a physiotherapist overseas. Um, and we were, you know, the standard approach to health is just use exercises, motive, treatment. And what I was doing with a lot of my clients back then was, you know, optimizing these other little things, you know, getting their lack of environment, right. Um, you know, focusing on all these different things around circadian rhythms. And I found that, you know, there was no area of health that sleep didn't seem to impact. I had, you know, people that were struggling with me, injuries that have been going on for years. Because they started focusing on the light environment and increasing their sleep quality. You know, those kinds of niggles would disappear. There was people who had terrible blood glucose levels, they were diabetic and, you know, they were eating, let's say like a ketogenic diet and there were still, you know, not quite optimal. And they found when they start optimizing all these different factors around sleep, we started seeing these, these great improvements. So that's when I started, you know, I originally actually started with a blue blocker glasses company, and those are the glasses that help to block blue light at night. Um, and those help to optimize your circadian rhythm and your sleep. Try and create more of a natural light environment at night. And then what I realized, you know, the one end of the spectrum where we're blocking light, because we're getting too much of it, but almost, you know, not more important, but just equally as important is, you know, when you look at, um, sunlight versus artificial lighting, you see that we're missing out on this big red and near infrared spectrum of light, um, which we'll obviously talk about why that's important now. But the biggest thing I realized is we've basically created indoor lighting for one specific purpose. And that was vision, you know, we don't take into account. What does, what, what kind of, um, physiological effect that indoor lighting is having on us? So while they're becoming extremely energy efficient, because they use less electricity, they're cutting out the kinds of spectrum of life that maybe eyes can perceive, but I, uh, well, not directly see, but they can take and keep the safe, um, as well as are any of our cells would be that skin cells or even in any of your internal organs, if we're talking about some of the more longer frequencies of light, those things are just completely missing from our spectrum. And that's, that's kind of where we got into red light therapy. um, and I've actually since then stopped working, um, as a, uh, bike geneticists, and primarily just focusing on, on Mychondria and we, we deal with a whole bunch of people based on, you know, individuals, but also practitioners. So currently we're in a place where we're having, you know, we feel like the best impact we could have on the world. We're reaching people at an education level, um, and teaching people about these things and then supplying people with the tools, um, in order to optimize the health and really, you know, create this huge change because, you know, it's just one of those areas that people don't. Tend to be paying enough attention to, Oh, I see. So relate to that story. And I'm so grateful that you're on this path to help, um, just, you know, no pun intended shed light on this topic. Um, and, and really, you know, of course we're playful about it, but it really has a huge impact, um, and can make such a difference for so many people on so many levels. Uh, even from a mood perspective that, you know, really, really particularly right now in 2020 and beyond. And pandemics. Uh, it's, it's so crucial. So I think it could help because I know when I sometimes will approach this with different clients that are really struggling with their sleep, um, of all the things, you know, sleep tech is this huge, booming industry. And so much money is really involved in there. Right. And it can occur for some people is like, Oh my God, how much money does it cost for me to sleep? What, you know, what do I invest in? What do I not? Um, and so, and. When I will recommend often, uh, some red light therapy. It can, if people are coming at this green and have no understanding of the connection, why would that help with my sleep? Um, I'm wondering if you can help kind of, uh, guide us through the kind of ABCs and then we can of course go more nuanced. Um, but why, why do we have this connection? How does this work a little bit more detail on that? So the people that are new will really undersell.
Yeah. So, um, there's two kinds of mechanisms or two. The ways that red light therapy can help with, um, with your sleep quality. Um, the very first one I'll quickly just explain the basics of red light therapy. So, um, when we were outside in nature, we would have been exposed to a wide spectrum of light, um, and red and near-infrared, uh, types of light, the longer wavelengths of light, they tended to be the most dominant frequency of light would be
exposed to, you know, if you were in on the equator, you would probably get exposed to a lot of ultraviolet light,
but that might not happen if you were, um, you know, up in Norway. And it would also very narrow depending on. The
seasonal, whichever but written near-infrared light at any given stage, whether you're on the equator, whether
you're in Norway, whether it's summer, winter, middle of the morning, midday, it is always minimum. Uh, 42% of all
the light coming from the sun is red and near-infrared land. So what our souls have basically done is they've
decided, okay, well, this is the most dominant frequency of light. So why don't we use this type of light in order
to make energy? So I'm sure most people have heard of the mitochondria. That's just a little powerhouse within
each and every one of your cells and these mitochondria use. Red and near-infrared light to make energy. It's very
similar to, if you had, if you could picture a hydro station and you have flowing water and that spins a turbine
in order to generate electricity, it's very similar within yourselves. They take red and near-infrared light, and
that literally spins a turbine, which helps the cell to make more energy or more ATP. And that mechanism mechanism
is really important to understand, because when you look in the scientific literature, we're seeing such a wide
range of benefits to, uh, with red light therapy. And it almost seems like it's too good to be true. And the
reason for that is because you and near-infrared light. Is affecting you on such a cellular level. You know,
whether that is a skin cell, a muscle cell, or even a liver Saul, if that's all has more energy, obviously you can
expect that it's going to be able to perform its function better. It's like if you had a doctor, an engineer and
an elite athlete and you give each of those three people more energy, they'd be able to perform this specific
functions better. And that's exactly what we see with red light therapy. As you see, you know, such a wide range
of benefits from decreasing inflammation, improve, sleep quality, um, in Proterra growth, we see all these
benefits and when it comes to sleep. And there's two different mechanisms. The first one is that because each of
ourselves within our bodies, within our bodies have more energy systemically, we're going to be able to, um, uh,
let's say deal with anything. Let's say it's inflammation or some kind of hormonal imbalance. If our bodies
systemically are in a better place, it means we're going to be able to function better. And that is often to do
with lowering our inflammation levels. And that means learning our cortisol levels. And as most people are aware,
cortisol and your sleep hormone melatonin. Kind of go opposite to each other. So if you can deal with a lot of
inflammation and, um, you know, just constant stress that your body's under your cortisol levels will decrease,
that helps your melatonin levels. Um, there was actually a study. Uh, I think it was about three years ago where
they took a whole bunch of female basketball players and they did whole body red light therapy every single day
for 14 days. And at the end of that time, they noticed, you know, everyone said that they had better sleep
quality, but when they did some of the actual measurements, they found that when they were tracking all of these
athletes sleep over, falling, falling asleep, 83% quicker, and the liver. Melatonin was 75% higher after two
weeks. Now that's obvious, but you know, there's, they speak about the mechanism in the study. And one of the ways
they say is, you know, decreasing that cortisol and therefore, you know, you're the antagonist or the other side,
melatonin is able to lift. That's going to improve your sleep quality. And you know, all the benefits come with
improved sleep. The other mannequin is, as I spoke about earlier, um, blue light, when we used to make our blue
blockers, don't act is really bad for you at night because it's the type of, uh, frequency of life that we would
never be exposed to. Off to sunset. Um, during the daytime, he would get through life from the sun and our bodies
have basically learned that whenever we receive blue light through our eyes, or even onto our skin, that's a
signal that it's daytime. So what we're doing at night now is we're being exposed to artificial light. We switched
these things on after sunset and we're constantly giving our brains this daytime signal. And as a, as a result of
that, we're increasing our cortisol levels. Again, that's natural for daytime and we're suppressing our melatonin
levels, which is really important for sleep. Also a very powerful antioxidant. So where some people, uh, we'll
see, what you will get is benefits from using red light therapy as a session, but even at nighttime now, I mean,
you can see my entire environment is, is red. It's just off, just off to sunset now. Um, so instead of switching
on artificial lighting, I've got, my screen is already set. I've got a, um, Iris software. I R I S and that
filters out all the blue light from my screen. And then I've got, instead of using the artificial lighting above
my head, I'm using red light here, so that it's not giving me that stimulatory effect that you would get from blue
light. Because you read when life would actually be to some degree, a natural, we would be exposed to it a little
bit. Um, after sunset we'd be exposed to it in the form of, um, like fires, those have red and near-infrared
light, but even in contact with another human body, the way that we receive heat from another human body is near
infrared light. So our bodies have very cleverly learned. This type of light is not the kind of light that signals
daytime. We'll use blue light for that, but with modern society, we've completely messed that up and we're
exposing ourselves to more, uh, blue light. And artificial, you know, the full frequency of life that you would
get only during daytime, we're able to do that at night, and that is obviously wrecking problems without a sleep
quality. So on one hand, direct red light therapy has that systemic benefit of lowering inflammation and
therefore, you know, having as a consequence, increasing your melatonin levels. But on the other side, if you can
use it as a lighting source, especially if you have led lights, they're really durable. You can use those as a
light source at night, and then, you know, you don't need to worry that the lighting in your house or anything
like that is going to be causing that cortisol spike. And melatonin drop and obviously impacting your sleep
quality. Wow. Oh my goodness. I hadn't heard of that. Uh, basketball study. That's awesome. Uh, lots of great
information there. So assuming for many people that are listening, uh, really keen on, of course, improving their
sleep, whether it's, you know, just really dismal, total sleep or they're getting what other people might think of
is, you know, pretty decent sleep, uh, numbers, but they want to take it to that next level. Um, that, uh, we
would assume that after hearing all that you've shared about that there's some interest around red light therapy.
So then if there's interest, um, what I've I've heard from other clients is like, okay, where do I even begin a
wish? You know, once you start going into, you know, you start Googling red light therapy, there's a lot of
numbers of, you know, how do we make sense of round, uh, the output of this red light therapy, um, concerns around
flicker rate, uh, Time of when we use it. Is it only for the evenings or do we want to bring that in throughout
the day? Uh, do we use it to combat our, you know, computer use? Do we not do that? Like kind of just the, um, you
know, with your expertise, the guidance for people of then, okay. So I'm interested. How would this look for me in
my life? Perfect. So I'll, I'll start with kind of how to use the device and then I'll discuss any of you what to
look out for on the market. Um, so when it comes to the time. The day, you don't have to be too strict with it
because as I mentioned, you know, any time of day, whether that's early sunrise or late in middle of the day,
we've always got at least 43% red and near-infrared light from the sun naturally. So written your infrared light,
doesn't actually have that much of a stimulatory effect when it comes to your circadian rhythm, that is more
dependent on like your blue light, because that would, that would change according to the time of day. So that
makes sense. We would use that type of light, um, when it comes to like doing a specific session, we often, you
know, our clients always recommend like, um, start of the month. It was a really good idea. It is when you would
get the most red and near-infrared light from the sun. Um, and it also kind of, uh, you know, helps to offset any
artificial blue light that you would be exposed to later in the day, if you're working in an office or something
like that. Um, but if you can't do it in that time, it's not the end of the world. You know, any time of day does
tend to be, uh, you know, it's not going to have any kind of consequence to, if you're doing a throng today with
that said, we do have some customers. Um, and this is, this is from anecdotal experience. Um, we do have some
people who find that the, the, the light just quickly. Stimulating stimulating before bed. And what we've put this
down to is it's actually more, it's less to do with the, um, the color of the light and more to do with intensity.
You know, red light therapy is using a really bright light in order to deliver you, you know, the therapeutic dose
in a relatively short time period. So if you're doing a treatment on your face and you, you know, you've got your
eyes closed, you're still going to see a really bright light, even though it's red. And it has less of a STEM
electric effect than if say it was blue light. It still can have, you know, that cognitively stimulating effect,
um, late at night, Cause people don't find it an impact at all. Some people do find it. A lot of it is just to do
with the intensity of life, um, when it comes to choosing a device. So it's the wild, wild West out there. There
are so many different devices on the market and at such a wide price range. Um, it can be quite hard to decipher,
you know, what's really a good red light therapy device and what's just a party light. That's going to light up
the room. If you look in the scientific literature, they're not using just a red light bulb, you know, they're
using specific led lights or even lasers in the scientific research. So. A couple of things that you can look out
for. One of them is the lack of intensity, which you mentioned. Um, and that is, it's also known as their
radiance. Um, and that is literally just the measurement of the amount of energy that the latch is delivering to
you. Um, it's measured in many Watts per centimeter squared. And when it comes to the light intensity, what
actually tends to be more important than, and the actual amount that the company would be telling you is that they
tell you how far away from the device they were. Because if you want to start, you know, you can use general
guidelines, but if you want to, as a biohacker, you really want to dial in your red light therapy. The sessions
for specific benefits, then you can start looking at the scientific research and figuring out what dosage or
protocol they used. And if you want to do that, you need to make sure that you can get the right specifications.
So most comfortable, a lot of companies will say, you know, this is our device. It's a hundred milli Watts per
centimeter squared. And that's all the information they give you. But what they tend to do is they take this
measurement right up against the device. So you don't know when you're six, 12, 18 inches away from the device.
You don't know what that lightened tends to do is because it tends to decrease as you get further. The other way.
So for full transparency, you know, normally a hundred million Watts per centimeter squared is like a good light
intensity or radiance to look at, but more important than that, make sure that you're choosing a device that is,
you know, completely transparent with the specifications and tells you how far away they were from the device when
they took that specific measurement. The other thing you mentioned was flicker. Um, and for those of you who don't
know, our electricity grid is on an alternating current. Uh, so that means it switches on and off at a really high
rate. So it's out of 50 Hertz or 60 Hertz. Depending on where in the world you all. But what this basically means
is that especially with led lights, they flicker on and off at a really high rent, but it's not necessarily
perceivable by your eye. If you had to take your phone and record a slow motion video of an led light in your
house, chances are that lack will switch on and off in the slow motion video. And you'll see a flickering on and
off now just because your eyes can perceive it doesn't mean it doesn't have some kind of effect on your brain.
There's a lot of research out there that is now showing that the flickering light can actually have a. You know,
like this stress response on your brain and it can lead to things like tension headaches. So if you're using a
quality red light therapy device, obviously you want to make sure you're taking three steps forward and you're not
taking one step back because there's kind of an impact from, uh, the flickering lights. Uh, the other one you
mentioned was EMS electromagnetic fields. Um, well, those of you who don't know, those are just, uh, we, we get
natural electromagnetic fields. Like we would get from the earth. Um, if you were into grounding or something like
that, that's magnetism that you would get from the earth and, uh, completely natural. Cool. Then you get what's
called an EMF, which is non-native electromagnetic fields. And those are as the word, the name suggests nonnative, they're not what our human, the human body is used to receiving those kinds of frequencies of magnetism.
Now, any electrical device, because it has a flowing current isn't, it will emit some kind of electromagnetic
field. But what you find is the further away from the, you know, that electromagnetic field may only be a couple
of inches away from the device. So if you're using a device that has like a really good line, Intensity such as a
hundred milliwatts per centimeter squared. And they say to you from six inches, depending on the device, um, you
know, reputable companies should go and check their devices and see, okay, how far away are we getting
electromagnetic fields? Um, and with all my condor devices, we go, okay, so we give the first measurement at six
inches. We don't even say zero inches. We say six inches. You're getting this dosage. Um, and within, from six
inches and beyond you have zero electromagnetic fields. And again, it's one of those things you don't want to take
three steps forward. One step back, you know, we're getting exposed to so many. Yeah, miffs in the form of, you
know, cell phones, wifi, you know, you don't want to just compound the problem and, and add those on. And all
three of those factors tend to be a problem in some of the cheaper devices. So you might have a low light
intensity, so you might not actually get the benefits that you're after. Um, you might have a device that is
flickering. You might not see it, but if you follow it with a slow motion camera, you might see that the light
flickers on and off. Um, and then the third one obviously is the electromagnetic fields, which you, uh, you need
to be a little bit further away from the device, um, in order to make sure that you're not getting any. Kind of
exposure to excessive.
20:03
Wow. Oh my goodness. Thank you so much for, uh, walking us through all that. I know that was a mouthful. Um, and
I'm curious too, if you, if there's certain, um, uh, myths or, or even it could miss or things that you think are
just particularly noteworthy in the area of EMF, EMF, sorry of red lights. So the, the thing, I mean by that is I
know that, uh, red light therapy had. Gotten some, um, press for awhile when men were talking about using it for
testosterone growth, um, or, you know, kind of increase, uh, is that something that you think has validity to it
and, or are there any other misnomers, um, or things that just are particularly noteworthy that you wanted to kind
of, uh, kind of sort through as it relates to things that you hear a lot in this, in this area? Yeah. So, um, with
the, with the testosterone, I'll start with that one. Yeah. It was made quite famous. There's a, biohacker
probably, most people have heard of called Ben Greenfield and he did this. There's an article. I think it's in the
men's health and it says red light therapy shining a red light on my testicles, increase my testosterone by 300%.
And it makes sense. A lot of guys, uh, are, you know, we don't get exposed to any kind of light in that area. Um,
and red and near-infrared light, obviously isn't the type of life that's going to burn you, but it is the type of
light that has that stimulatory effect I've told you about on yourselves and for a guy 99% of your testosterone is
new. So we see quite a good or quite high improvements in that as well as fertility rates. Um, and when I just
started out doing red light therapy, I had a, one of the guys that I popped in with. He was actually having some
testosterone issues. So we said, okay, well, let's, let's give this a gun. So this is just an anecdotal our
response, but it was really great for us to see, you know, to test our products up. And when I was, when we
started this, I was still working as a biokinetics cyst. And we were in, um, a medical practice that had, you
know, a whole bunch of different people with physiotherapists. We had massage therapists and we also had a sport.
Position. And he actually specialized in testosterone replacement. So we did a baseline testing and we've got, uh,
this is my friend's, uh, baseline testing of his testosterone. And he was definitely on the low side. I forget the
metrics. It was about 10 something, I think in milligrams, per mil, Palito units. I think that was the unit. It
was 10. Um, and what he did then is once a day for 10 minutes, you would use the red light, uh, shiny man, his
testes. And then after two weeks we did a retest. And what we saw is that his, his values went up. It was up to
six. 17 point something. So he'd seen a 70% increase in testosterone and the physician that we were, uh, we did a
lot of testing for us. He didn't, he didn't pay too much of a partner. We just said, do a test for us. That's what
we wanted you to do. Um, he said he wouldn't have been able to get that drastic of an improvement, even if he'd
been injecting testosterone, his body wouldn't have taken it up that quickly if it was an exogenous form of
testosterone. So that was really a great resource, you know, that was just kind of putting faith in the product
and what we're doing. And there's been a lot of guys that there isn't a lot of research. Directly to do with
testosterone. There's a lot of research to do with fertility. Um, I think there's a lot of ethics issues around
trying to get people to shine a light in that area. But if you go into like the biohacking kind of groups and Nash
and communities, there's a lot of guys who are saying, you know, they see, uh, you know, improvements when they do
their blood work. We've actually got a customer who's just done some blood work and is promising me some, some
values in the next few weeks. Um, and anecdotally also what a lot of people say is they notice, especially as a
man, that they kind of feel the effects of what it would be like to have more tests. So they say all of a sudden
they have a little bit more muscle definition or their mood is better. Their libido is better. Um, so even if
someone doesn't go and get the lab work done, a lot of people say, you know, anecdotally again, I'm saying here,
but they say, you know, this feels like what you would expect if you were getting an increase in testosterone.
Wow. What that is, how are there not more studies on this? It seems like this would be a very exciting, uh, area
for, for a big half of our population. That's amazing. And then you asked, I remember had something, you said
something that is a bit of a nuance or something it's, uh, you know, maybe a methyl, something about red light
therapy. What's very interesting is one of the most common questions we get is will red light therapy help to
increase my vitamin D levels. And th th the direct answer is no red light therapy or red, and near-infrared light
is not responsible for making, um, but a Mundine, you actually require ultraviolet light, um, and that needs to
come into contact with your skin and in your skin, your body then converts cholesterol into vitamin D. Indirectly.
However, we there's a lot of research that shows that red and near-infrared light is able to improve your ability
to actually absorb ultraviolet light. And this actually makes sense, even if you look at nature, if we had a
sunrise in the early morning, we would, because the sun is in the horizon. It has further to travel before it gets
to us. And as a consequence, we don't see the shorter wavelengths of light, such as ultraviolet light. And we get
a really high concentration of red and near infrared light. So in the early morning, if you're outside and getting
exposed to that type of life, It basically wants your, your skin cells. It's like, okay, today, you know, the
sun's coming just now start preparing for that. So your body starts upregulating or activating melanin in your
skin, which is one of the pigments that helps to prevent sunburn. And as a consequence you start seeing, when you
do go out later in the day, then, um, exposure to ultraviolet light has less of a negative side effect. Obviously
overdoing it with ultraviolet light can have its negative side effects, but you do need to have a healthy dose of
it. So, um, a lot of people also the question and it's yes. Maybe it helps facilitate it because there's there's
research where, I mean, they literally take a there's one, one study where they, um, two people or what, sorry,
one person, two legs, as much as humans off. And they apply red light therapy to one leg, one of the legs. And
then 10 minutes later, they, they exposed both of the legs to ultraviolet light. And what you find is that the leg
that was exposed to red and near-infrared light has significantly less, um, sunburn or red light damage, even like
20, 24, 48 hours. The incident of ultraviolet light. So if you are someone who finds that you're burning, every
time you go outside in the sun, red light therapy can be a really great tool in order to help prepare your skin
and build up your solar callus so that when you do go outside and, you know, let's say later in the day, then, you
know, you can be a little bit more safe and obviously then you might not have to use as much sunscreen, which we
don't need to talk about too much. But obviously this is, you know, risks you're taking. If you're using a lot of
chemicals on your skin and you're then also blocking out some of the healthier web things like that, you should be
getting into. Oh, I'm so glad you touched on the vitamin D topic and also help to educate because there's so many
people that I'll speak with when making the argument that so much of getting great sleep, involves our connection
to nature and to being outside more regularly than certainly the average person might be nowadays. Um, so the fact
that you illustrated that it can also create a new relationship for many people with the sun, um, there's many
kind of, uh, uh, past spaced way of life. Looking at how we interact with that. Um, that many people, you know, I
might be working with people 65 and older, and they've spent so much of their life layering up in sunscreen. And
so what you're speaking to is really revolutionary for a lot of people around, um, prioritizing that time in that
infrared exposure, uh, getting that inferred exposure so that it can actually help make a difference in prime you
to, uh, handle the sun and to get all the benefits of the sun in such a powerful and very important way as well.
To sleep. So thank you for illustrating that. Um, I'll also make the argument at different points to, of, um, uh,
skin health. So, you know, I've had psoriasis since I was young and, uh, I would at different points, I go to the
doctors, of course they would want to, you know, often give all kinds of things to try to help make a difference.
Right. But one of them was, um, red light therapy. And I felt like that's a really interesting thing because there
seems to be some sort of lab coat effect of, okay. So if a doctor. The doctor is actually writing a prescription
for something like this, um, that it tends to lend some more validity for people. And I was wondering if you could
share more about, uh, red light's effects on things like that, of the auto-immune issues, skin issues, um, and
things that, you know, cause of course we're talking about this area of sleep, but it is certainly a total health
package. And so if we're looking to invest to know some of these things that can really be problematic for people
and how that can make a difference, I think is really.
28:31
Yeah. So, um, you know, we can talk about the connection between sleep and any of those issues, but even, even on
an even a more fundamental level, red, red light therapy is able to help with inflammation. And just to give
someone a brief idea of what inflammation is, inflammation is actually just when your soul is not functioning
properly and it gets basically your soul gets tagged as the cell needs to die. Your, your immune system starts
attacking that cell because it's been tagged with inflammatory markers called cytokines and red light therapy.
Cause if it, if it is aimed at a specific cell that is, uh, you know, not functioning properly, if it is able to
produce more energy in that cell is a much lower chance of that cell being tagged as a non-useful cell. And
therefore we see a decrease in inflammation. That means your immune system is not going to be overly active. So
it's something like psoriasis, psoriasis is heavily involved. It's inflammation, it's inflammation in your skin.
So if you can get red light therapy on that area, it's going to help to deal with that inflammation and your, your
skin cells a bit, your basic, your immune system is going to stop attacking your skin cells. When you see this
great improvements in, uh, with, with psoriasis, um, autoimmune conditions, again, autoimmunity is your, your own
immune system attacking yourself. That is again inflammation. So it, it is, you know, another mechanism where, you
know, red light therapy is not going to cure Lyme disease or, you know, any kind of, uh, you know, auto immune
condition, but it can definitely, you know, decrease the symptoms and help him. I mean, w whichever kind of
autoimmune disease, I always invite people, you know, go into, cause it always seems too good to be true. You're
going to a scientific database, something like pub med and type in red light therapy and whatever you want to put
in and chances are 99% of the time. You're probably going to see some kind of a correlation between a red light
therapy and some disease. Cause there's always this there's because of how it works on such a fundamental level.
We see, you know, such a, a wide range of benefits as, as I mentioned. Um, well, one thing to you don't mind, I
just wanted to add any with talking about, um, getting a natural light exposure and see. Again. Um, I just wanted
to add that, you know, sunscreen, that's one thing, another thing is sunglasses. A lot of people are wearing
sunglasses every time they got outside. And what most people don't realize is that, you know, yes, at night, it's
really important to block your lights so that you can increase your melatonin. But when we look at where melatonin
comes from, what actually happens is, um, ultraviolet a T it's the type of ultraviolet light. It's not as harsh as
your UVB light, but ultraviolet a light when that goes through your eye, that helps that converts tryptofan into
serotonin. Which is one of your, a feel-good kind of neuro-transmitters and at nighttime in the presence of
darkness, which is when you should be blocking a blue light, your body then converts serotonin into melatonin. So
if you're just blocking artificial light at night, but you're not actually getting outside during the daytime,
you're not going to see as great an impact as if you were getting outside during the day, bulled up those
serotonin levels. And then at night time in the presence of documents, that'll get converted into melatonin. So
just my, my extra piece on there is, you know, don't always wear your sunglasses outside. Um, you know, It is
completely natural for the human eye to be exposed to a certain amount of light. Obviously when you first go
outside, you know, use common sense and don't stare directly at the sun. Um, most of us are so conditioned to
being inside that going outside is, you know, often too bright, but it's definitely one of those things I've
noticed with myself, my family and all of our customers, basically I've always said either through red light
therapy or just getting outside more, they quickly noticed that that kind of glare effect that happens when
they're outside tends to disappear off the wall. As you kind of, you know, get more used to natural light that you
would. Instead of just interlocking. Oh yeah. Such a good call-out. I, that was one of the biggest behavioral
change, uh, elements for myself. Uh, uh, there was, I wouldn't go anywhere without sunglasses for so much of my
life. And to finally put them aside was like a big deal. And I'm so glad you called that up because it's so
impactful. Um, and you know, someone should have these things. It can occur as a lot for people in the beginning.
Um, but once we start making. Some of these basic shifts, it really becomes a set it and forget it and it can be
so, so, uh, beneficial. And I love that you also, uh, took, you took us through the element of serotonin and I was
speaking with another red light company and they were making, um, the push for exposing red light to the gut for
gut health and that, uh, production of serotonin. Is that something that you also advocate for, um, as it relates
to sleep? Absolutely. I mean, so most people aren't aware. And most serotonin is made in your gut. And then that,
you know, is connected by the way, Brett brain gut access and red and near-infrared light is able to penetrate,
uh, you know, 15, 20 centimeters into our tissue. So it can actually get to your gut. And wait, when you started
looking at, at light on a fundamental level, and you start looking at how, you know, how it's interconnected with
everything in our lives. Essentially, if you look at food, food is just stored light. You know, we are getting
energy from the sun that is being absorbed by plants. They're turning parts of gray. Yeah. Whether you're eating a
plant, whether an animal eats that plant indirect, you're getting some form of light. Light is a, is a fundamental
mechanism of energy transfer within humans. Now we, this is very interesting. There's a guy called Dr. Jack Cruz.
Who's a bit of a, uh, a bit of a, he's an extreme guru in the whole light and circadian rhythm industry. And he
was talking about, you know, we have, um, receptors for like, we have them on our eye. We have them on our skin
and the other place that we have, it is on the endothelial lining with enough stomachs and. What actually happens
is you eat food and that goes down into your stomach and your microbiome actually breaks down, um, this light and
releases it as light. So your, your gut lining is receiving photons of light. It's almost like the way that Jack
explains it as if you had a, um, like a projector, then it's almost like your stomach, your stomach is that
lining. And the gut biome within there are, um, they're releasing this light so that your stomach lining or the
projector is able to absorb it. So your gut pays a very. Strong attention to the type of life that you're being
exposed to. And it also does, and it does that for, for a very specific reason. And that is that the type of light
you're being exposed to will tell your body what kind of food will be available in your environment. You know, our
gut microbiome is meant to change with the season. You know, in, in winter months we would wouldn't necessarily
get as many carbohydrates. It wouldn't be, you know, freely available because fruits tends to grow more in the
summer. Whereas in, uh, some obviously then we get more ultraviolet, light, more stronger light cycles. The
environment produces more ultraviolet light and, Oh, sorry. Produces more carbohydrates. Therefore, our gut biome
actually changes. Um, it's called a composition in order to prepare for the type of food that we'd be exposed to.
And there's a very interesting study, uh, that Jack also actually referenced was they studied. There was a thing,
I think it was the HUD has the tribe in, I think it's Tanzania. And, um, what they noticed is that their
microbiome was changing so much across the different seasons and what they basically were, were figuring. Out
does, it's not necessarily the type of food that you eat has doesn't have that much. Oh, what does have some kind
of impact on your microbiome, but even more importantly than that, you lack environment tends to almost be a
stronger, um, change your quality out changer of your gut biome. And you know, at first this doesn't seem to make
sense, but if you think about what would happen in nature in, in summer months, we would have lots of really
strong light cycles and ultraviolet light, but then in, um, you know, as the full stop. Happening. And we start
getting shorter light cycles. The best thing that we can do for winter is to start storing a little bit of fat. So
what happens is you start getting exposed to less ultraviolet light as a consequence, your vitamin D levels will
go down a bit. And that also means that you're not going to be that good at metabolizing carbohydrates. So come
the autumn, we're getting low levels of vitamin D and we're still got low bit of carbohydrates that are available
in the environment. So as a consequence, your body goes okay, low vitamin D levels. Plus carbohydrates equals the
signal winter's coming. Let's start storing fat. And this becomes a huge issue. When you look at how most people
are living alive these days, no matter where in the world you are, you can get a banana, you know, 365 days of the
year, the other of the year. So this, you know, not eating according to what's in your environment, creates a
whole bunch of mismatches between, you know, your lack of environment, your gut, and the type of food you're
eating. You know, this is, this is definitely a key component of, you know, all these metabolic syndrome, um,
issues that we have is, you know, out of season eating, if you're eating carbohydrates, And your vitamin D levels
are really high. You find that people don't tend to put on as much weight. I mean, there's a lot of, if you look
at, you know, the areas in the world where we have the worst, um, diabetic or the highest diabetic, uh, prevalence
amongst the population, it tends to be the furthest away from the equator, which is where we get the least amount
of ultraviolet light, which is where it is. It should be naturally the least likely that you would get, um,
carbohydrates freely in the environment. So in a roundabout way, what I'm saying is your land environment has a
very big impact on your gut microbiome. And you should be eating the food that is locally within your region and
making sure that you're getting outside into natural light in order to create a harmony between your life
environment and the food that you're eating. Oh, I love that. And, and yeah, I'm so glad you, um, acknowledged,
uh, Jack Cruz really just paramount in what he's teaching for so many people, um, and spreading also this passion
around this area. Um, and certainly even in your speaking, the passion is evident. Um, and in that. Vein. What
would you just say is, uh, some of the ways that your life, that your life itself looks different now that you've,
you know, really indoctrinated this way of looking at the world at your environment, its impact on your health?
You know, I know that's a big question, but are there some kind of key takeaways, um, you know, things like, you
know, not wearing sunglasses, getting outside at certain times, all of these things can be a big, big shift for
people. Are there other things that you're doing as it relates to where you choose to live? Live or how you choose
to live your life that have really, um, made a big impact on you. The biggest thing that I've taken away from
everything that I've learned so far is that you shouldn't get too caught up in what most people are doing or in
what current research is saying. Well, I say kind of research, there's always some research out there that is, you
know, funded by something. And you should always, basically, I'm just saying question everything that you have,
but your number, your compass, when it comes to health is nature. What would we have been exposed to in nature?
And now. I always look back and I kicked myself and I'm like, how did I believe sunscreen was, you know, how did I
believe that the sunlight was bad for me, but I didn't have to do anything about indoor lighting. You know,
people, if people, if you start wearing blue blockers inside, people think you're crazy. But then at the end of
the day, you're like, hold on a second. We evolved under the sun yet. Now we're getting exposed to unnatural
artificial lights. I'm protecting myself from that. But you think I'm crazy because I'm going out in natural
light. Um, so your, your compass, when it comes to health, I realized is if something isn't in line with what you
would have seen in nature, I would always be skeptical of it and question it. I love it that, Ugh, and it's so
refreshing during a time of, you know, 20, 20 pandemics staying inside, pushing us all, you know, to be even more
disconnected from nature, uh, as kind of a, a social narrative. So I appreciate more and more people that are
standing up and, uh, really helping to share what's possible as far as our health and, uh, you know, the
transformations that you've seen for yourself and for the people that you work with. It's so, so important. Um, so
how can people learn more about you and of course, uh, you know, you've dedicated your life to creating these
products around helping people in this area. Um, how can they learn more follow you? All the things. So on social
media, I mean, on Instagram is probably the best place to follow our company. So at my Chondra that's MYC, H O N D
R I a M, but then on Facebook, we've got a really awesome group. It's called a circadian warrior. Yes. And it's
not just about light it's anything to do with circadian rhythms. Obviously the most important stick when it comes
to having a healthy circadian rhythm and optimal sleep is light. So predominantly we talk about light, but there's
a lot of other factors that are talking about, uh, that are spoken about there. I'm on Instagram, I'm actually
circadian underscore warrior. Um, and I obviously put out a lot of content all around circadian rhythms, light,
um, and other kind of fields of, you know, uh, light, circadian rhythm kind of context. But I would say number
one, Instagram. Um, my M my mic, H O N D R I a. Um, otherwise our website is my Chondra. If anyone
wants to get like a free, uh, red light therapy guide, we do have, um, if you go to www.mitochondria.com forward
slash 2020, um, there's a link there where you can basically get a free PDF that just gives you an overarching
view on red light therapy, including how to use it, the benefits, and you know what to look out for when choosing
a device. Oh, that's awesome. Okay. We'll make sure to get all of that in the show notes, too. So, uh, so that you
can just make sure you click through, get that information. Um, you know, so I know cause you gave so much value
on this conversation and then to be able to underscore it for people and see it in black and white will be helpful
as well, because I know it's a lot to take in for a lot, uh, for a lot of people. So I just want to really thank
you for the work that you're doing, um, for you're clearly living this and, uh, and just, it stands for people as
an example of what's possible. So I really appreciate what you're. What you're up to, and I can't wait to follow
more, uh, between your company and the work you're putting out. It's very exciting. Thank you. And I really
appreciate you. I really appreciate the opportunity to speak to your audience or, you know, whenever it's
something to do with sleep, it's, it's a complete passion of mine. This doesn't feel like work when it's talking
to people about sleep. I feel like when I'm walking down the street and I'm trying to talk to the general person,
I can't be like, you need to fix your sleep. And I know that I'm not crazy. I walk up the here, I'm a crazy
person, but when I'm talking to you guys, I know that I'm not insane. Oh, I love it. Yes. You've found your people
for sure. Uh, well, I really appreciate it. And I'm looking forward to staying connected and following all the
work you're doing. So thank you.