Dr. Eugene Lipov is one of the world’s leading experts on the treatment of symptoms related to post-traumatic stress. Truly, a pioneer in stellate ganglion treatment for symptoms of PTSD, he knows first-hand that trauma can be all-consuming. Growing up with a veteran father stricken with PTSD, and a mother with debilitating depression who eventually took her own life, he truly understands the impact that trauma can have on the lives of many. He’s made it his mission to help others relieve their traumatic suffering from PTSD and restore hope to their spirit. In 2006, Dr. Lipov pioneered the use of Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) for the treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) — a procedure that was initially approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the 1950s for the treatment of certain types of pain and circulation disorders. It is performed with an injection of medication into a collection of nerves at the bottom of the front side of your neck. It is most commonly known as a pain-relieving treatment, used to relieve hot flashes for menopause and cancer patients and treating shingles — and, now, to alleviate symptoms related to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
Dr. Eugene Lipov is one of the world’s leading experts on the treatment of symptoms related to post-traumatic stress.
Truly, a pioneer in stellate ganglion treatment for symptoms of PTSD, he knows first-hand that trauma can be all-consuming. Growing up with a veteran father stricken with PTSD, and a mother with debilitating depression who eventually took her own life, he truly understands the impact that trauma can have on the lives of many. He’s made it his mission to help others relieve their traumatic suffering from PTSD and restore hope to their spirit.
In 2006, Dr. Lipov pioneered the use of Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB) for the treatment for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) — a procedure that was initially approved by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in the 1950s for the treatment of certain types of pain and circulation disorders. It is performed with an injection of medication into a collection of nerves at the bottom of the front side of your neck. It is most commonly known as a pain-relieving treatment, used to relieve hot flashes for menopause and cancer patients and treating shingles — and, now, to alleviate symptoms related to post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD).
SHOWNOTES:
😴 What is the Stellate Ganglion Block (SGB)—and how can it reset your sleep?
😴 Is sleep fragmentation a hidden sign of trauma?
😴 Could PTSD, postpartum depression, and hot flashes all be connected to your nervous system?
😴 What role does the amygdala play in your restless nights?
😴 Are you skipping deep sleep—and missing out on critical brain detox?
😴 Do dogs have PTSD too?
😴 Is your nightly melatonin, yoga nidra, or lavender spray doing anything?
😴 Still relying on benzos or alcohol to fall asleep?
😴 What does real sleep recovery look like after trauma?
😴 Is SGB (Stellate Ganglion Block) right for you?
Plus:
😴 Dr. Lipov’s own nightly routine, his thoughts on tech, light therapy, and what he believes is the future of trauma-informed sleep care.
😴 And many more!
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GUEST LINKS:
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DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness.
And I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome to the Sleep as AKI podcast. What if the real reason you can't sleep isn't stress hormones or blue light, but a dysregulated nervous system? This week on the Sleep As AKI podcast, I'm joined by Dr. Eugene Lippo, renowned physician and pioneer of the Stella Ganglion Block. Also known as SGB for short, a groundbreaking procedure, helping people reset their fight or flight response and reclaim deep restorative sleep.
We dive into how SGB is being used to treat PTSD hot flashes. Postpartum depression and more, and why? Sleep fragmentation may be a major red flag for trauma, plus the surprising link between trauma and sleep. Why deep sleep is essential for healing simple tools like yoga, nidra, lavender, and circadian light.
And yes, even dogs with PTSD comes up in conversation. So I think you're gonna be really fascinated with today's episode, so we're gonna jump right in. But first, a few words from our sponsors. Please do check them out. They really do keep this podcast alive and running, and we only partner with sponsors that we genuinely believe in the products.
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If you wanna give it a try, go to buy optimizers.com/sleep as a skill and use the code, sleep as a skill to get gifts with your purchase. And this is a limited time offer, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results. And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. We are going to be going deep on really a fascinating topic, so I really appreciate my guest taking the time to be here.
He is quite in demand. So thank you Eugene, Dr. Eugene, for taking the time.
Thanks for taking. Good time to talk to me.
Yes, absolutely. We are gonna have fun. This is gonna be great. So maybe first, beginning at the beginning, how did you find yourself such an expert in your field?
That's a loaded question. So let me give you an overview then.
Please.
Yes. Find my field right.
Okay.
Uh, so the field that hopefully I'm best known for is utilizing a old aesthetic procedures called stel Gingham Block to treat various things like hot flashes. And then from there I went down to start treating PTSD patients. Hmm. So the reason I'm interested in car flashes is my mother took her life when I was an intern, so I'm very interested in women's issues.
Yes. Because. Anyway, we won't go into, I can tell you how I got into it.
Yeah. Well, I appreciate you sharing that, by the way, because certainly in the world of sleep, we see so many people that are struggling with different major topics and major struggles in their life. So being vulnerable like that makes such a difference.
So thank you.
Two things, predict suicidal ideation, sleep dysfunction. Yes. And mm. So only two things, right? So if you haven't slept, jumping off the building seems like a damn good idea. And if you're impulsive, there we go. Bye. There we go. There we go.
Yeah, dangerous.
Got it. I totally agree with you. Sleep is huge and I'll tell my perspective the reason I ask in kind of a spunky way.
Yes. So I had a career as academic and the physiology, I've done all the complex and aesthetics you can imagine, like open product, surgery, brain surgeon, children, whatever. Then I did many years as a pain physician and now I'm doing, this is a fusion of. Sympathetic blocks and psychiatric conditions. Sure.
Immune conditions. Now we are actually getting into sleep. Uh, hot flashes, reproduction, sexual functions. Amazing because the, basically my particular expertise is sympathetic nervous system, pfl. So if you are running from the tiger, that's what happens to the body. The cool thing is you can do something about it.
Hmm.
So I think one of the things we can talk, start talking about is hot flashes please. And I'll, it's relevant. A it affects women.
Yes. Right.
It's interesting. So it's the gradation of it. So, uh, 60% of African American women have hot flashes.
Mm.
50% Hispanic, 40% Caucasian, and about 25% Asian. Kinda interesting how that's breaking down.
Ah,
that is interesting.
So the first thing actually, so Ella Ganglia block, lemme just tell you what that is. Sure. It's essentially injection of local aesthetic into the neck bundle here. Right. Nerves that controls fighting flight nerves. Those nerves go from the neck to the brain. Okay. So an injection here, it can kind of resets the body to prera state or pre problematic state.
Hmm. So if women, let's say, have breast cancer. And they take out their ovaries. So breast cancer doesn't kill them. Right. Hot flash has become very severe. One of the big signs of one of the big complications, hot flash, is sleep dysfunction.
Sure.
And I can't sleep.
Ugh.
So in my publication, 2008, I think when you do an injection like that, it takes away the hot flashes and they can sleep.
Like for example, in the study we did on breast cancer survivors. Those guys had 35 wake up in one week before I did a procedure. After they had three. What?
You're kidding.
Right. And we can talk about mechanics of it. Why? But my point is that was my first entry into the sleep arena.
Wow.
With PTSD, a lot of people can't sleep.
Now, why can they not sleep? Right? Mm. Multiple reasons for that.
Mm-hmm.
I mean, dysfunction, I'm sure you understand there's a lot of reasons for that. Part of what happens is there is a, so let me introduce you, my three favorite friends of the brain, okay? Science. In the most simplest form, there are three structures you need to know.
Mm-hmm.
PF, C, prefrontal cortex. Okay? That's a new cortex. That's like what makes us humans.
Mm-hmm.
Which is a fear center and hippocampus both last two, uh, sit in the limbic system. Mm. System in a dog and a human in a rat is the same. There's no real difference. Sure. So if you take that perspective, so for example, I've treated two dogs of R-P-T-S-D using that procedure Really?
And it worked for them.
That's fascinating.
Well look, look at part of the symptoms of SD and a dog is the same as the human. They can't sleep. They're either aggressive or submissive. Mm. And they're hyper responsive to stimuli sound especially. Right?
Wow.
So it's the same. There's no difference to me. Mm.
And if you think about it, your amygdala controls emotional memory. Hippocampus controls regular memory.
Okay.
So when somebody has PTSD, they have a lot of. Struggles, emotional struggles that tends to come out during sleep. Mm. Like keeps your lights, your sleep is light, not restorative. Right. And you are waking up nightmares and all this.
It's basically your amygdala says, I'm trying to process it. You're not listening to me. Mm-hmm. Because it's overwhelming. A lot of times people don't remember the trauma.
Right. But like
a lot of people came back from World War ii, they had memory lapses for years.
Mm.
Right.
Absolutely. So,
and then have you heard the term glyph?
Glymphatic? Yes.
Yes, absolutely. Sleep,
sleep. Sleep person. Yeah. So the key point about glyph, it is basically it's only recent discovery, right? Yeah. Five years. Yeah. So turns out when you brain runs, it produces waste products. And the only way to get 'em out of the brain is you need to be in deep stage, stage four.
To get rid lymph to the deep product system.
Yeah. So you
never get too deep in sleep. You're always gonna be kind of woozy and sleep, even if you slept 12 hours but you never got deep sleep, that's a problem. Mm-hmm. Where ordering comes in.
Exactly.
If your lovely count, how much deep sleep have we done?
How much? So there's uh, five cycles of sleep, one and two is light. Three and four is supposed to be deep. So four, you know, four is the, the one that does a glymph removal and there's ram. Mm. So when you ram, you're sleeping. So when I do e, EG, monitor, um, meditation. Mm. I fell asleep couple times. And you think it'd be like your brain wave is flat?
Oh no. It's all I'm hyper wave. It's so weird to look at the brainwaves.
Yes.
Or for sleep. It's like, oh, you're sleeping, you're dreaming, you're flying. What? Whatever you're doing. That's a lot of brain work Absolutely. Out of it. Right? You're trying to process things. Totally. So if you have something really problematic, you're trying to process it with great detail and a lot of work.
Hmm.
So, so there, so one of the, so the simplest thing, so I actually do what I believe in, right? So that's why I use the ordering. And that's one of the things you wanted to kind of, and the summary at the end, we're gonna give a summary, like specific things.
Yeah. But
it's interesting to see the information that ordering gives you.
Mm. Is,
but it gives you HIV heart rate variability. It gives you the depth of sleep and it looks your heart rate. My heart right now when I sleep is down to 55 and I'm not a huge athlete. Sure, right. But I've had treatments for my PTSD.
Wow. And so for you have in both in yourself and people that you've worked with, been able to see pretty reliably that that heart rate and HRV seems to have some shifts thereafter, or is it hard to predict?
Not done a great study on that. We've tried to do a study like that with Woo
mm.
See that much. Okay. Now it wasn't ordering.
Yep.
But what's interesting, so, so we used, so we did try to study it. Sure. So we started. The, my prediction was HRV will increase.
Mm-hmm.
Heart rate will go down, deep sleep will go up.
Mm. Prediction, almost uniformly, people who had a great response to PTSD said their sleep was markedly better.
Wow.
But we could not measure it than work.
Okay.
Is that because whoop was not the right choice? Is that because it's not real? I don't know, but I do know people function better.
Yeah. So
to me.
Something is being missed by me. I'd like to do a study of his order. Some, but I mean, studies cost money as you can imagine.
Exactly, yes. And especially with one of the first things that you pointed to with the reduced sleep fragmentation, that alone, and particularly over time. So if we're able to kind of go in deeply and see what happens, and as we lapse time and people are sleeping with less of that sleep fragmentation, you would imagine that eventually we'd start to see some of those shifts.
We'd think.
You'd think that. I have not seen that yet. Yeah. Okay.
Okay. Stay tuned
on Sunday. Yeah, exactly. And I'll, as more people have, uh, orderings.
Yeah.
More of that. But again, keep in mind this is not a clinical device. Right,
exactly. Yeah.
So I think this, this, this give you a general overview, but clinical device, eh, I'm sure you can do a little better with through.
Assessments and those, but you know, it's like who's gonna have like a $2,000 machine? Machine and every time you go to sleep.
Yeah. Well I wonder, have you been connected at all with Empower Sleep by any chance? Maybe we could connect you guys. They are doing some cool things where they are having people wear FDA cleared sleep trackers to diagnostic in nature so that you can diagnose sleep apnea, what have you.
But they're one of the few sleep diagnostic. Items that is gonna be, that pulls HRV, so it's the sleep image ring. And so the sleep image company is really fascinating. And so they're pulling with more fidelity, the HRV more frequently throughout the course of the night. And so Empower Sleep is working with people to have people wearing these for extended periods of time.
So maybe there could be some kind of informal possible studies
available.
I mean, it's really, I think it's a great product. Again, I use
Yeah, same.
Um, the weakness, it doesn't continuously gives you information. Yes. Right. And if you look at it, it's really cute. They go, why are there gaps in the information? Well, there are real reasons for gaps.
Yes.
And exactly. You at, like, you cannot look at continuous heart rate on this.
On all. Yeah. On a Fitbit, I know exactly what heart rate is. B2B.
So true. Absolutely. I mean, that's why I have both. They have both. Yep. I so get it. Wow. Okay, so this is fascinating and actually when you mentioned PTSD, that was one of the ways that I originally discovered some of your work was through of all things, somehow some rabbit hole of Tony Robbins and his really advocating for your work for people.
I.
We had, we had a long discussion about all this. We've met for a couple hours.
Okay. Very cool. Kind of like an encore. I could see him going for a while to stop. Good. Yes.
Uh, all right. So I think you're right. So it's, it is interesting how, how people meet is really weird.
Yeah.
Uh, I mean, I, I am honored to be on new cast because I think deep is very important.
Yeah.
So, so one of the things that I'm big into physiology. Okay, so let's. What happens during sleep and what doesn't happen during sleep? Right? Sure. So the brain goes through all types of cycles for multiple reasons.
Yes.
It's trying to package what's going on. So if you have a lot of trauma, uh, sleep dysfunction is one big sign.
Mm-hmm. And it also affects many other systems. For example, people think, oh, okay, I didn't get enough sleep. Let's pop a Valium and, uh, everything's good this morning.
Yeah, as I shared, I went down that path when I'm traveling. And a yi yi. Not a, not a good
solution. Well, there couple of little problems that approach.
Number one, if you take Valium and Bens depin, it's addictive.
Ugh.
Not the best thing. Right? Not, not good, but, okay. Exactly. Yeah. Two, you're not gonna get into stage three, stage four sleep.
Yes.
If you drink yourself to sleep. You ain't getting stage three and four, so your glyph is gonna still sitting in your brain.
Mm. That's not good.
Not good, right?
Another great advantage of taking Valium long term is to shrink the brain. The brain shrunken, unless you are cannibal. And trying to make those no heads, that's just not good.
Exactly.
We don't that tricking the brain is bad. We,
we do not, we're noting for that. Okay.
We say no to that.
Yes. The whole and benzos, they're working the same receptor. If somebody is going through DTS from alcohol
mm-hmm. When I,
the county doc, you give them Valium and they stopped seizure. Is the same. So one, so people say, well, hey, I'm taking s I'm not drinking. Eh, you You haven't gone that far.
Exactly.
You're doing the same thing.
Yeah. We had Benzo Information Coalition on the podcast, entire nonprofit devoted to getting the message out about some of the perils of long-term benzo and Z drug use, and it is just astounding some of those. Stories and things that people find themselves in the thick of when taken as prescribed as part of what they speak to.
'cause it's not necessarily right, it's just taking it as prescribed and yet it's a mess. Well, people
ask when I was a pain duck and people have a lot of pain, like, you know, serious problems.
Sure, sure.
People is one of the big things.
Yes.
Then they would like to go. It's like, you know, yes, I'm taking some narcotics, but I'd like to have some benzo.
Yeah.
There's a problem with doing that if you combine benzo. Any kind of benzo, calcium sleepers, Valium, they're all the same basically.
Yep.
With narcotics, it can make you stop breathing. So current recommendation is not to mix the two.
Yeah.
One of the things I used to use was, um, il, it's, it's an old antidepressant.
Mm-hmm.
An addictive.
Mm-hmm.
It can make you sleep. It doesn't really hurt you at low doses. That's not a bad choice if you have to have a, like a real sleeper. Sure. And it kind of has some stuff on the sleep architecture, but not too. Mm-hmm. Right. So that, that, that's something I used to use. Some people use Benadryl, especially in older folk.
Mm-hmm.
The problem give you delirium.
Yeah.
Benadryl, it can dry out your throat. Right. So dry out Oh, absolutely. Can also give you delirium, which is not, it would not be a good thing.
Right. Oh, absolutely. If you've tuned into the show or followed any of our content here at Sleep as a skill, you may have heard that everyone that we work with wears the OAR ring, and as a result, we have amassed a very large database of OAR ring users and get to see what really moves a needle for people when it comes to their sleep.
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So if you're ready to take your sleep to the next level, head on over to eight, sleep and use the code. Sleep is a skill, all one word at checkout for a discount. So for people listening that are hearing what you're sharing about of this and quite possibly for many people that might be hearing about this for the first time, this, you know, advancement, who would be an ideal candidate for a procedure like this?
And are there any risks? I
do. Yeah. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Alright, we'll go to that. So lemme give you general information what I do about Please.
Yeah, yeah. We'll back up. Okay.
What, what should people just think about?
Okay,
so first of all, all the boring stuff, right? No screen time, two hours before.
Yes.
Because what it does suppresses your melatonin.
Yeah.
Melatonin is God's way making go to sleep. Also, it concentrate in breasts, so it reduces breast cancer. Mm-hmm. So if you look at women who do shift work mm-hmm. And significantly higher compared to women who do not.
Yeah, that's
clear. Why women yet less breast cancer?
Mm. Isn
that interesting. I, I, I just found it fascinating personally.
So
crazy.
Uh, so melatonin supplementation is okay, however, you don't take so much you're sleep the next day. Mm-hmm. So people start at three milligrams and go to 20. Typically between one and three is all you need. So you can get a pipette of it. Don't take like, you know, Walgreens, all thing you fine is three milligrams or more.
Mm.
Yeah,
right.
Absolutely.
Like try a smaller dose. Don't go nuts.
Yeah.
So light is super important. No blue light. Also, like in my apartment, we have blackout shades. Absolutely. You wanna have zero light because melatonin is gonna get, but as you get older, your melatonin production is reduced.
Hmm. So
mplementation is good, but understand, you make it very groggy from that.
Melatonin also seems to reduce, like I said, breast cancer. It reduces the impact of chemotherapy sometimes.
Mm-hmm.
But it has a lot of really positive impact. It can reduce other cancer risk also.
Mm-hmm.
Overall, if you're gonna pick one supplement.
Yeah.
That's, I mean, that's what, God, that's why God made, uh, pituitary.
I mean, it's like we have, that's why we have melatonin, right. So that's a good thing. Yeah, absolutely. So no light. Also, the other thing that's been shown to improve. Increase is aromatherapy.
Mm. Yeah, absolutely.
Smell is one of those things, which is really great. Mm. Another thing I absolutely love and actually test it out, and I saw a difference in Noura, is yoga, Nira, body.
Skin.
Yes.
Absolute. At least.
Mm-hmm.
Basically for those who are not familiar, I'm sure you know all about that.
Sure. Yeah. But please,
yeah. What you're doing is you're visualizing your body, closing your eyes. You're going time to go to sleep. Uh, he start to, I'm gonna relax my toe, my left toe, my left knee, my left hip, and so on.
So as you go through that, what I found, my deep sleep increased probably 20% from that. Just doing that.
Amazing. And you were doing it before bed or when you would wake up or
No? No, it's a little late at that point.
Okay. You're doing it during the day
as I'm getting, as I get in bed. Yeah. It's time to go to sleep.
Right. So it's time to chill. By the way. That room needs to be cold.
Yes.
If it hot, you ain't sleeping. We not design that way. We're supposed to be sleeping in the cold room. That's how human beings
No.
So obviously not uncomfortable.
Yeah. So
be in a comfortable position and then do a body scan. Listen to it for 15 minutes.
Okay.
And then go to sleep.
That's so great. Uh,
I think those, that, those are very practical, simple things, but actually make a big difference also. No heavy meals or pretty much eat nothing.
Yes.
In
the two hours before.
Absolutely.
Huge. Takes a lot of power. You don't want the power used for that. Use power used for something else. So the only thing you should use bed is sleep and sex.
Mm-hmm.
You watch about your movie. Movie Meal
control. Yeah.
Read a lot of stuff and uh, if you're gonna read something, read a book.
Right. Don't read electronic, but that's keep giving you blue light, which is suppressing your melatonin production.
Absolutely. I love those. Those are huge needle movers for people. And to your point, most people are not doing those things '
cause Oh, and turn off the phone.
Yes.
You have a kink being, gling, getting Oh yeah.
It's like, you know, the stock market went up and so down. What gonna do about it?
Exactly. Nothing.
But now you looked at it. And then it's like, okay. So I, I do sometimes leave it on. Mm-hmm. But I, private setting, the only people I can come through is like my designated, um, super important calls. Mm-hmm. Like my service, my wife, my kid, my brother.
I love it. That's it. Nobody else take a number.
So good. Yes. I love that. Clearer boundaries. Yes.
Absolutely. I think it needs to be clear and people call you. Oh, I'm sorry. It was a pocket dialed. I was in France. Thank you very much. Now you woke me up.
Exactly. Yeah.
I How sorry you are. It didn't help me.
Right.
What do I care how much I'm sorry you are, I don't care. Exactly.
Exactly.
It prevents the whole thing. Okay. I think, I think the basic rules.
Mm-hmm.
And being hyper, hyper alert, like being really, and if you think about it, we are all trained. I think more so your generation than my generation. Mm-hmm.
We would have all those devices. Yes. But you trained to keep track. It was like, oh, the news cycle. Oh my God, this, this happened, this happened, this happened, this happened. Whatcha gonna do about it?
I know my husband and I, I just turned 40 and we were talking about how we were like this weird generation being on the cusp where we spent like all of our high school years and into the beginning of college without all of that tech.
You know, you didn't have the cell phones or whatever until college, but so now it's like we're. Kind of tech aligned and yet had those formative years without that. So it's just this odd generation and, but then you see the new generation of just n like just out of the womb covered in tech and sort of, I mean,
they, they, they can, yeah.
Well, I, I walk around and now nowadays I see. The kids are walking around like this. Oh, I don't know how you see it. And in the latest thing, the goggles. Yes. Oh, that's gonna be so marvelous. Thank you so much for that.
I know. Concerning. Okay. Anyway,
fortunately I have one kid who's doing great, so I don't need to wait.
Yay. Okay.
Anyway, so that's kind of my general advice, which is probably very, very similar to your general advice.
No, it's beautiful and I appreciate you sharing that because often that can save the day.
Coffee No. Good.
Yes.
At night. Coffee in morning. Good. Yeah. After two. Not a good idea. Not a good idea.
Okay.
Another thing is getting into natural light. So it's always a great idea, but sometimes you don't get it. So I have all spectrum light. Like my mother, for example, had, uh, seasonal depression. Mm-hmm. So those lights are great. So 10, 15 minutes, as soon as you get up, we'll get your sleep cycle to be in the right position.
Yes.
Those are really useful Ab.
Uh, if you can't get to it, turn this light on. Not, not drag the lights, but you're talking about full spectrum lights. Sure. And then like 20, $30 that are inexpensive.
Oh, absolutely. I mean, that was part of why I moved from the Northeast. So I'd been in, grew up in Maine, lived in New York City for many years, and moved to Austin for the ability to have more sunlight, more routinely.
So I hear you.
No light there.
Yeah. Totally. Okay. So people are listening and should take heed to make sure go through that list that you kind of walked us through and ensure are you doing all these things? And then even if you're, you know, kind of you've done 'em for a couple days or something, we gotta stick with it.
We gotta make this kind of a lifestyle
compliant. Yeah. Yes, exactly.
Okay.
Anyway, so, so the stuff I do for like what Tony was talking about, Tony Robbins? Sure, sure. So PTSD is, to me, is. Over activation of fight and flight system.
Yeah.
So with overactivity you can't sleep, right. Uh, you're always hypervigilant in your hyper acoustic use sound will irritate you, all of that.
Mm-hmm.
So I think, uh, so what we found is that when I do an injection in neck, which is called Stella Gion Block, it resets that system to prera state.
Wow. So it
can calm down. If it calms down, you can rest. You're not riding a thousand miles per hour and you can sleep, which is one of the benefits also.
Absolutely. But you're not hypervigilant during the day, so you're not exhausted from doing all this. You can function at a high level and also be found in special forces. I've, I've had an honor of taking care of a lot of special forces guys. What they found is instead of being frenetic,
yes,
like everywhere, they're now focused.
So high performance people really like that. Some of them said like. SOF guys, special operator forces, like, um, am I gonna become a wist because if I do, I'm gonna get killed. What we found, they're more functionally effective compared to when they were not treated. Oh,
sure.
They can get better sleep.
Although I think I forget, a lot of times military guys use energy drinks.
Yes.
For you, like six sour allergy. That, that doesn't help you sleep so good.
No, we, um, actually, I, I don't know if you're familiar or connected with Dr. Kirk Parsley, but he's been known as sort of the sleep doc for Navy Seals and, um, he's actually starting up a podcast and if helpful, happy to connect you guys.
So he's been in. Yeah. In that, in that field for a very long time. And he's been credited with getting tons of guy, uh, tons of seals off of Ambien. 'cause there's, and this was over the decades, 'cause this has been a long time in the running and is very passionate on these topics. And I think the two of you would be beautiful.
Okay. Okay. Because
what stuff I do would work well with what he's doing.
Absolutely.
Wow. 'cause a lot of times those symptoms, right? Mm-hmm. So people go, well, they have alcohol addiction disorder.
Yeah.
Me All it is is a symptom of PTSD. They're trying to take the trouble for a swim.
Yeah, so true.
Well said.
So resolve that. What's interesting, so Tel G Block, we've done it on people like one seal guy who was drinking a liter a day of vodka. Wow. We did the block stop breaking. No dts. So the point is it pre seems to prevent dts, which is really interesting. It's
huge. Geez. Okay. The implications on this, so for people that are really struggling with sleep actively now, they feel like they've taken a lot of the kind of more traditional steps.
And would this be something that you feel like you can suggest for individuals like that as opposed to going down the paths of sleeping pills, anti-anxiety, medications, all of these other pharmaceuticals?
I like the second path.
Yeah.
So, well, lemme tell you how, how I usually use that. First of all, most people don't have just sleep dysfunction.
Yeah. They have other, they have anxiety or depression or both.
Yes.
Typically. Or PTSD or all three. Sure. Because they're comorbid. 'cause who can come out of this life as our trauma?
Yeah. Nobody
traumatized somehow or other.
Absolutely.
Um, so to me, I would try the basic things. Exercise, eat well, drop coffee, right?
Stop that. Turn off the lights as we talked about, you know, all, all the basic stuff. If it hasn't worked, then you might not think about it. So you may also have sleep apnea if, if you are not sleeping because you are so obese that your throat is closing up on you and your oxygen goes down to zero, I wouldn't suggest doing procedure.
I think we need weight. Or have or both or have surgery in the throat because, uh, sleep apnea, which is not a story altogether Yeah. Can kill you. It absolute, it increases chance of strokes, hypertension, cancers not a good thing.
Yeah.
So my point, if somebody has a severe case of something, I would get evaluated by an T surgeon.
You don't have to be fat to have severe sleep apnea.
Absolutely.
So if you get it evaluated and you are, you don't have that, let's assume. Mm-hmm. You want to come up with the pills, you want to do this. So I would, I would get evaluated with psychological issues. Mm-hmm. And potentially, and see if it helps you because it's helped overall, the two big impact of cell gang block, I think.
Or DSR, which is a new version of it, which is better. Oh wow. And dysfunction. And feeling of doom and impulsivity. Ah. But those are things that seem to be improved the most because if you think about it, if you're fight in flight systems overactive, you're not gonna sleep so good.
Oh, exactly.
Right. And yeah, you know, all those, so the way that analogy I use, like a body of mine did a procedure on the seal who was taking tons of meds.
Mm-hmm.
Then he had PTSD, severe PTSD. So he got into accident the next day because he fell asleep driving because the stellate reduced the engine. Yeah. Wake is still there, right? Mm-hmm. So sleepy. Half your drugs don't stop him. 'cause you're always gonna happen, but at least half it because you may get very sleepy from that.
Sure. Oh, that's a great point. Wow.
In a second start of trying to reduce your brain. Which is over agitated with drugs. Mm-hmm. And then you may not need as many drugs. Mm-hmm. Once a week instead of two per night.
Right. Geez. And how long does this last, and I know you mentioned the D SR two, if there's any distinctions to draw with that,
the difference between the two?
So standard selling name block.
Mm-hmm.
That was done was 1926. First time I did it was 1987.
Wow.
It on one side. C six level.
Okay.
So that works pretty well. But what I found, I was treating actually a sniper who had, he came in suicidal, which is problem altogether. We won't get into what happened then anyway, so I do the block and it didn't work.
Mm. Put he said, I'm gonna go home, kill things, kill myself. So I was lecturing in Norway about this procedure and I learned how to do another procedures higher up. I took him back and I did the other block higher up and it. Five minutes later, he gave me high five. He said, I'm fine. And he did. He did great.
What? Wow.
Doing a dual level reset of sympathetic system, which is a lot more effective.
Okay. Geez. And now that's what you're advocating more routinely that people utilize the dual sympathetic reset?
I do that all the time.
Okay. Okay. Great.
And even the emotionally, they don't feel indifferent.
Mm-hmm.
Because there is two of them and two amygdala. Right. Two different parts.
Mm.
They feel much more calm or relaxed, you know, they're gonna sleep better. Totally. If you're all anxious, you had a whole horrible day and you go, oh, I'm ready to go to sleep. Oh yeah, it's gonna work great. Not
exactly. Yeah. We often say
outta bed, what?
Let's chill it down. That's it. Yes.
Yes. Um,
so that, that's kind of, that, that's a whole plan. So the idea is what happens is when somebody has trauma mm-hmm. They grow extra nerve fibers, sympathetic nerve fibers. And each one of them produces more norepinephrine. As long as that's maintained, that's a problem.
This seemed to reduce or aate some of those extra fibers that happen after trauma. Wow. All United States, 8 million people with PTSD Uhuh a quarter, and you know, the women have twice the rate of PTSD compared to men.
Geez. That's wild. Okay, so an overlooked group. Uh, for sure. And then as you're pointing to, yeah, we started some of our conversation around these hot flashes, hormonal shifts that so many women experience through different seasons of life.
And we're often seeing that I. Hit at their sleep Of course. So potentially this could be an area for them to explore. And I, I hear you we're doing that thoughtfully, and we're not just jumping right to this.
Not like, oh, but the other part, we are actually looking for patients now and is postpartum depression.
So think about it. Estrogen goes way up and then bounces, right?
Yes.
So postpartum depression occurs in one out 10 women, probably give or take.
Mm-hmm.
PTSD that doubles the triple your risk of. Postpartum depression. Sure. And then also women that want to take drugs that'll affect the baby, right?
Yeah.
The stuff I do works in a day you can pump and dump for eight hours.
Mm. Works rapidly because postpartum depression is so important to deal with because the bonding was a child. Happens the first months is to three months. Right? So if that's, that's a problem. And again, then women can sleep because now they feel like they're bad mothers.
Yes. Everything. Oh my gosh.
Then the kids pick up, mother's unhappy.
Now the kid is unhappy. Now the kid is crying. Now they can't sleep because of that. Now the, the husband can't sleep and it's a whole cycle of sleep dysfunction. Yes.
Oh my gosh. Okay. And well, and I'm so happy that you have kind of helped make this available because this sounds like this could be life changing for so many people.
The applications. Feel really endless. And so for those people that now that if they're listening, they're saying, okay, check, check. I'm, you know, fitting the bill for someone that could really explore this, what might this whole process look like? Kind of, um, is this out of reach for most people? Is it wildly expensive?
Is it something where you have to do it routinely, like the length of time that it's, that lasts for all those details?
Well, let me give you, well, first of all, let's talk about the process,
please. Yeah. I'm
Chief Medical Officer for Stella. Center or Stella Mental Health currently. Yeah. So I'm A CMO there.
Look at that. Beautiful.
Yes.
Beautiful. Right. Anyway, so people are interested. They call up, they talk to our nurse practitioners. Okay. Who evaluation of mentally if they're, they need it, uh, if they're in the right place for it. And also they'll do physical evaluation, relation, are they healthy enough? Do they take blood thinners?
Do they have heart problems, lung problems, whatever. Sure. They do that. Everything passes then. They send it to me, or some likely we have 24 sites across the nation. We have site in also Israel and Australia. And then, um, uh, sometimes it takes one.
Okay.
Sometimes it takes more than one. It's variable. You know, average is probably.
Two and a half. It also depends what happens to you. Mm-hmm. Do you go see a psychotherapist after that?
Ah,
you are you traumatized again? Like for example, we treated a um, veteran who was a policeman and he was doing great for a year, and then he had to shoot some line of duty. Yeah. Like you on the Wall Street right now with all the instability.
Yep. It's probably pretty hard right now, is my guess.
Yeah. Yeah.
So all of that. So I think each side, so I think it's $1,500 per side.
Okay, sure.
To able stuff like that
and to get your sleep back and your, you know, it feels like sanity back and Yeah. I mean, my goodness,
you get back, you reduce your depression, anxiety.
Yeah.
Yeah. Because you know, if you're anxious or depressed, your sleep is whacked. Totally. It's not, sleep is not just one symptom. It's all, everything else, it's even, but it's not like we do it every week, right? Mm-hmm. Something the biggest I've ever done was six in one person, like 10 years.
Okay. And
what kind of experience I've had.
Sure.
Wow. Wild. Okay.
Fertility, which is kind of nice.
Yeah, absolutely. Wow. And any risks involved? Anything that people need to be concerned about?
Absolutely. It's this, it's still an invasive procedure. Okay. So there was a big study of that in Germany, country of Germany in 19 19 92. They did 45,000 sts.
Nobody died. They had, uh, nine seizures and 10 pneumothorax. When you hit the blood vessel, people have seizures. Hmm. This is before x-ray and before ultrasound, we use ultrasound so we could see where everything is at.
Oh, wow.
Okay. The of that is very small. If it does happen, we're all trained to deal with it.
Okay.
Uh, but it's considered to be a safe procedure that's been done, like I told you, since 1926 before we used to the blind, like we feel around the sticking. You know, a little better now.
Wow, west. Okay, now it sounds a lot better. Now, what about from the vanity perspective? I've seen just as I was, you know, looking at some of this, the eye drooping.
Does that last a long time? What's that looking like? Are we gonna look like that for life? That might make us a little more depressed.
No, it's only like less eight hours. So it's Honer syndrome. It's called it. It not only does it make it droop, it also makes it dread. Ooh,
my God. Okay.
Sunglasses. It's no big deal.
It's hoarders, right? It's, it means that there is a sympathetic block in action. It lasts eight hours and it's gonna come back to normal.
Mm. Okay. So its never a fear of permanent.
Well, there is a chance maybe one out of 10,000. I haven't seen
it. Haven't seen it. Yeah, totally. Okay.
Let's, I mean, still putting a needle in the neck next to nerves,
right?
So you gotta be aware. Okay. Wow. Beautiful. Now before we shift gears to how you're managing your sleep, and I know we've already learned some things as well, so thanks for sharing about the yoga nidra, body scan, et cetera. Um, but before we shift gears to that, is there, this is a huge topic. Is there anything that you feel like we left out or that you wanna make sure we address?
Or do you feel like we covered most of our bases?
I think we got most of the bases. So, I mean, I, I'm a medical doctor, right? So basically diagnosis first. Mm-hmm. Just rule out the bad things like sleep apnea.
Yes.
Make sure if your wife tells you you're snorting like a crazy person.
Yes.
Go see somebody.
Absolutely.
Feel like you're choking.
Mm-hmm.
Like you're not getting outta oxygen. Go see somebody because that's sleep apnea. You can have central sleep apnea and even if in beautiful shape,
yeah,
it can still happen. Don't take it for granted. Check it, check it, check it, because it's not just a little sleep.
It's hypertension, it's right. Heart failure, it's bad things. Yeah. Rule first, number one. Number two, stay away from benzos and things like that. Melatonin is fine.
Yeah.
Good. Not bad. Not the best. Not the worst.
Right. Right.
Benadryl. Hmm. Be careful. Especially when you get older, you can have mental changes from that.
Sure. Sure. Yeah, so that's, that's basically it. But I just wanna make sure people realize it, because a lot of times people don't think of that. Just, oh yeah, I haven't slept well, how long? Yeah, 20 years. Well, that's no good.
Exactly. I don't feel like
I'm in the middle of the night. I don't know. I wake up choking, so that's a problem.
We
don't exactly. Thank you. Thank you for underscoring that. So good. Okay, so, and clearly you're someone that's thought deeply about your sleep and nervous system, et cetera, so I'm very excited to hear how you're managing your own sleep. You got the OA ring, uh, and beyond. So the first question we ask of everyone is, what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now?
Yeah, I go to sleep, but I said between nine 30 to 10. Okay. I wake up six to six 30. So it's consistent. So consistency, pace.
Yeah.
So I walk into my bedroom. Um, my wife and I sleep together occasionally. Does snore, I have to say it.
Okay. Full disclosure,
sleep correction sometimes has to happen.
Yes.
Um, I spray a lavender, uh, spray on my pillow.
Nice. I turn down
blackout shades.
Mm.
And I started listening to this latest and the greatest music thing from Dr. Steven Porges. I don't know if you know who he is.
Oh, I don't think I'm as familiar. Okay. I'll have to look into that.
Oh, polyvagal. He is like the master. Oh, for polyvagal.
Oh, sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Yep.
He has a new app that he may wanna promote. It's amazing.
Really
resonate to your body. I turned it on. I fell asleep, my dog fell asleep, which is,
oh my gosh. I love it. It
was hilarious.
Okay, so it affects all creatures big and small.
Well, I told you, ma, well, not all creatures, mammals.
Oh, okay. Good distinction.
Wouldn't do anything for like a turtle. It's. I think about this stuff.
Whatever. Thank you. Yes. Very accurate. I love that. Okay. Rooted in science.
I try to do, I don't always do yoga. Yoga, Nira. Uh, a lot of times I fall asleep because I, by the time I'm in a good position, I'm already ready to go sleep. Yeah, sure.
Try to do yoga Nira sometimes. Mm-hmm. But now I'm this new thing.
Great. I'm gonna check that out,
but I think is a great thing. I do keep close track on like exercise. I try to exercise in the middle of the day, not at the end of the day because I can wait
on them.
Uh, not always successful. Uh, I do, after I have dinner, I go walk around for 10, 15 minutes to settle everything down.
I eat dinner. I eat dinner before eight. So my wife might sometimes give disagreement. I like to hear you at at six. Sometimes she wants eat at six. So it's a problem.
Yes. But
earlier the better I would say.
Absolutely. Yeah.
After dinner has been shown to improve condition, body function, whatever, um, that's about it.
That's perfect. Drink a lot of stuff before you go to bed, you know? I am 67, so sometimes prostate calls my name.
Really? You look so young and sprightly. That's amazing.
I can tell you why, if you like.
Exactly.
No, I, I, I'm big into epigenetic clocks.
Okay.
Tell you how old you are and Yes, sure. I love cin, but my biological age now is 54.
I'm 67.
I believe it. Yeah. It exudes from you. Okay.
In a positive way.
Yeah, absolutely.
Also, aerobic exercise is huge, so my, my heart rate goes down to 56 at night.
Great. Yeah. We see a lot of people that are coming in, to your point, dealing with traumas, autoimmune issues, stressors, and they will be up in just seventies, sometimes eighties, while sleeping, you know?
Yeah,
yeah.
Well it's interesting, so, so the direct connection from Stella Ganglion mm-hmm. To the side on the bone marrow.
Yeah.
But actually sympathetic system controls the immune system. So in fact, there've been some study that shows interleukin six, which is one of the immune responses. Mm-hmm. So that they've used it for ulcerative colitis in China.
Geez. Okay. So far reaching. Well, great. Thank you for walking us through your nightly routine. And what is your morning sleep routine look like with the idea that how we start our day could impact our sleep?
Well, I usually get up, uh, and I have a. My job is, I'm the coffee man, so,
okay. You know your role.
Good. The bride is ready to receive coffee. Good. If it's light out, I'd like we, we have a balcony, so I try to get some light in my face. If it's, it's, you know, Chicago, sometimes it can be drier winters. Sure. We have a full spectrum light thing going on. Mm-hmm. Uh, and then, um, you know, I try to have a fairly light breakfast.
Okay. Um,
it's interesting. So if you look at caffeine information, so two to four cups supposed to be very therapeutic for the brain. I try to have two cups, which is fine. Okay. Um, and then that's about it. I mean, some, you know, sometimes I, I, I have the luxury of exercise and I do stretching. I have a guy who stretches me for hour and a half on my little fascia.
Once a week. So I mean, it's like I am not complaining and I try to do, uh, a lot of aerobics like walking, not nothing. I don't run. Sure. You know, four or five miles a day, four or five times a week. I try to do all of that. That always succeed. I also take a lot of magnesium. Magnesium is great for sleep.
Yeah. And
micro function and our food supply is exhaustive. Magnesium, there's no magnesium at all in.
Absolutely. Yeah.
Doing that also.
Okay, that's perfect. So then what might we visually see on your nightstand or maybe in your environment? I know you already spoke to the proper blackout and cool in the space.
Anything we missed?
I've tried. Well, I mean, the only thing I have, I mean I have alarm clock a lot of times. I don't need to wake up. I have my little spray bottle.
Yes, that's great.
Uh, I have small amount of water. And pretty much it. And you know, I have my pro device, but it's usually either off or it's set in, uh, emergency receive only.
Nice.
That's good.
You're not getting those wake up from France or what have you from the phone calls. Oh, I'm so
sorry. I was having
dinner. Exactly.
Like what? I care, you woke me up anyway.
Good. So you got systems in place to make sure we don't deal with that good. And you know,
I, I've tried for example, um, weighted blankets.
Mm-hmm.
That's useful.
I know I've seen a real binary kind of experience with those, or real, uh, kind of black and white because my experience was like that too, which felt like kind of, um, a restrictive right, and just like
it takes a lot of force to breathe.
Yeah. Yeah.
Feel choking. You don't, you don't need to exhaust your breathing muscles.
Exactly. Yes. I found 'em for like a quick nap or something. Alright. Maybe that can be soothing, calming. Yeah. But if a whole night, you know, for many, many hours and moving this thing around. Yeah.
Good. So you try it in a sitting I have a summary common chair in my office. Oh,
okay.
And you can put it around you.
It's much easier to breathe because now diaphragm can do more work for it. Mm. That condition. It's really for like a short, intense nap. It may be more useful.
Love that.
If you raise your knees. Mm-hmm. So you take the pressure off the back.
Beautiful. Yes. Look at you thought of it all. Beautiful. So good. And then our last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the management of your own sleep?
Or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep.
Well, the ha moment was really not Aha. I mean, it's like I was very stressed, so my kid was stressing the hell out of me.
Yeah.
I was very, very stressed, like. Severely stressed. Yes. Where I was afraid I'm gonna have a heart attack and die.
Yes.
So I had my cell gangan block, I had psychotherapy and that changed everything. So I was like, I got myself back. I was able to, all the little things stopped bothering me. I was like, Uhhuh. So I came back and I talked to my, I remember like yesterday I talked to my kid and I said, you know, you got away with all type of craziness.
Yes.
Back to my normal self. I'm the commander. You're the cadet. Life is gonna be very simple. Love that, and something bad. You have a big problem. So good. God bless. And then like that reduced my levels. Like, you know, it's like, so now he's nervous. Perfect,
perfect. As it should be. I like that clarity. I think lot better.
A lot of it is my problem because I had a complex childhood. You know, my mother's dad, blah, blah, blah. It doesn't number care. The body doesn't care. It's like it knows something's wrong.
Yes.
You listen to your body and the body says, yo, you're going the wrong direction.
Mm-hmm.
Take, you may want to take like a PCL test.
It's called PCL five PTD checklist.
Yes.
Uh, that if you are about 33, you have PTSD probably.
Mm-hmm.
Seek L doesn't mean you have to have a study.
Sure.
You trauma informed therapist.
Mm-hmm. Right.
Listen, like, you know, if you also, if you have a good relationship with your bride, life is so much easier.
Oh, true.
So true.
If mama isn't happy, you're not happy.
Such wisdom.
Right. But, but it's all affected, right? If you, yeah, of course. 85% of men with um, PTSD have sexual dysfunction.
Well, I didn't know that that, but I believe it. Yeah.
Lum, if you have oxytocin, it's like, oh,
it's so nice. It's like a one.
Yes, so good. Wow. Well, the far reaching effects of what you're speaking to is so important. The management of our nervous system is everything. It's going to show up for better or for worse in our results, in our experience of life, certainly in our sleep. But I just so appreciate and acknowledge you for the work that you're doing to help support people when they might feel like there's no other option for them, or they're feeling at their wit's end.
And to have a path like this just really is. Very exciting and encouraging. So thank you. Thank you. So for anyone listening that wants to check this out, what are the best ways to do that? And of course we'll have in the show notes, but where should they go?
If you go to stella center.com
Okay.
Look up, uh, the intake where our sites are.
Yeah,
that's my, our people would do a great job assessing it and not everybody needs that. Sure, definitely. And you know, we need to make sure people are healthy enough to have a procedure and all this, but we have helped a lot of people
and it looks like
there is hope. I'm bigger into hope.
Yes, thank you.
That's when people kill themselves.
Yeah.
So that's no way now.
So important. And also just based on what I've seen from your website, which is beautiful, by the way, from the Stella website. Maybe even if to your point, maybe they don't quite meet the criteria for going the direction of the SGB, but then you've got like Ketamine treatments, you've got TMS, right?
Other things. My
moral approach. Absolutely. Sure. We were just, but no, it's a multimodal. And our people also write medications and all, but we certainly don't write benzos.
Thank you. Thank you. We need to get this message out. There are alternatives people. Okay. Well I so appreciate this. Absolutely. We'll include this in the show notes so people, if they're struggling, can have people like you and your team in their kind of back pocket.
So that sounds wonderful. Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate you. You've been listening to The Sleep Is A Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.
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