Miesha Tate is a former UFC Bantamweight Champion and still an active fighter in the UFC. Outside of fighting, she hosts the Built for Growth podcast, where she interviews a wide range of guests on mindset, resilience, health, and entrepreneurship. She’s passionate about health and wellness and regularly speaks at events and conferences on topics like longevity, recovery, and performance, drawing from both personal experience and global wellness practices. When she’s not training or traveling, Miesha enjoys spending time with her family and coaching the next generation of athletes.
Miesha Tate is a former UFC Bantamweight Champion and still an active fighter in the UFC. Outside of fighting, she hosts the Built for Growth podcast, where she interviews a wide range of guests on mindset, resilience, health, and entrepreneurship. She’s passionate about health and wellness and regularly speaks at events and conferences on topics like longevity, recovery, and performance, drawing from both personal experience and global wellness practices.
When she’s not training or traveling, Miesha enjoys spending time with her family and coaching the next generation of athletes.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 How insomnia became the wake-up call of a lifetime
😴 Still reaching for sleeping pills? What you really need to know
😴 Is your anxiety about sleep actually making it worse?
😴 From body scans to breathwork—how to physically let go for better sleep
😴 The power of morning light (and why it’s non-negotiable)
😴 Alcohol, late dinners, and your Oura Ring: what the data says
😴 Practical tools and circadian-crafted routines to help you stay on track—no matter the time zone
😴 How emotions, trauma, and suppressed feelings disrupt your sleep
😴 Why writing things down could be the most overlooked sleep tool
😴 Why your environment might be mimicking a casino (and wrecking your sleep)
😴 From vitamin D to growth hormone: your sleep health isn’t just about sleep
😴 And so much more!
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DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman, and I am the founder of Sleep As A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill Podcast. This is a very exciting episode for a number of reasons, but one is because not only do we get into, of course, the topic of sleep, but we get into it in bed. So this is the kickoff of what is going to prove to be a new exploration in the world of this podcast. In different settings, in different people's bedroom environments, including my own.
But this will allow for us to be able to dive in more intimately with our guests and get a sense of how they're really sleeping, what types of tools they have in their environment. But this kickoff was actually in my own bedroom and with none other than Misha Tate. Oh my goodness. What a delight. So, Misha Tate, you might know her as UFC Champion, um, big brother, celebrity winner, and so, so much more.
But in this episode, we get to know her even more intimately. Talk about things that I imagine maybe have only been discussed on this podcast, hopefully. And we get to hear about some of her strategies as such a champion. How does she manage things like anticipatory anxiety with her sleep before big events, things that all of us want to have tools and resources around.
She helps bring that information and we ended up making it sort of a joint podcast where I. Discuss sleep. She discussed some of her protocols for health and wellbeing and so much more. And if you haven't noticed, I'm also doing a lot of my podcasting outside in addition to some of the bedroom ones. So you're gonna be seeing a lot of different sets happening.
And so just bear with some of the potential funky background noise as a result of being outside. But why are we outside? Often outside because it's points to and speaks to exactly what we discuss as so crucial in the world of getting not only great sleep, but attaining fantastic health, which is a circadian aligned lifestyle.
Now, we talk about all this and so much more on this episode, so we're gonna jump right into the podcast. But first, a few words from our sponsors. Important question. Can you see the hand in front of your face in your bedroom? If so, you need to hear about our sponsor who is revolutionizing the blackout shade space, and finally making it easy and affordable to get a truly blacked out bedroom.
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So again, go to U Blockout, spelled the letter U Blockout, and use code sleep as a skill for a discount. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep. And one of the first questions people ask me about sleep is what supplement they can take. One supplement I've consistently taken for ages is magnesium, specifically by optimizers Magnesium breakthrough.
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Slumber party. Oh, right. Yay. This is so cool. I'm so happy. You're like the kickoff for this. This is amazing.
I'm so happy too. This is awesome. Um, I, you know, as we were saying before, it was like, um, a different kind of set, a different kind of vibe. A very different set. Yes. Yeah.
Nothing if not unique. My whole life has been that.
So, you know, it's gotta be, and I think we were saying too, is like, I got here and we're like, we're doing your podcast. We're doing my podcast. We decided we're gonna gonna do it. It's a joint podcast. It's a joint. We're gonna merge this. Yeah, we are. So this is gonna be fantastic. It's gonna be fun. All sleep all the time.
Yes. So how did this whole scenario for those who are are watching or maybe just listening, you we're sitting on a bed. Yep. Now, oh yeah. That's helpful. Really comfy. Exactly. And how did this come about? Like it's part of the, the, the theme, right?
It's part of the theme. Yeah. Well, I can tell you I was not planning it.
Um, so about a decade ago, I was traveling internationally with my husband, who you just met. And we've been together 14 years. But at the beginning of our travel journey, I started dealing with insomnia, which I had never dealt with in my life. And for the definition, insomnia is difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep.
Did you, were you a good sleeper before that, or did you, you were just, eh, you were a great, no,
I wasn't a good sleeper, but I thought of myself as someone who could sleep. And when you're going through insomnia, it's suddenly like, well, can I sleep? It's no longer guaranteed. But before that, I had a lot of labels and narratives with my sleep.
So I'd say things like, I'm a short sleeper, I'm a night owl. It's in my jeans. I'll sleep when
I'm dead. Mm-hmm. You know, I hear so many people say that, oh, I'm a knight, you know, and I prefer to be. And I'm just like, well, I, I think, um, you have, you don't have a good circadian rhythm then. I don't think that naturally.
I don't believe that. Most, if any, people are, um, designed to, you know, be awake at night and fall asleep as the sun comes up.
Well, you're exactly right. We are diurnal creatures, meaning we're meant to be active by day and at rest at night. And when we start deviating from that, which, you know, I can keep using myself as an example, what not to do, I was deviating from that, like I was doing all the upside down things.
So basically. My husband and I, we work with a lot of high stakes poker players now. And initially we would be living often just like those poker players, like going to bed super, super late in darkened environments, barely getting outside, living in Manhattan. Like just a circadian bomb. A nightmare. Yeah, yeah.
And entrepreneurs and so stress to the max. And so that stress then manifested with sleep. And the big thing for me too was like when we were traveling, it was so impactful to me because night after night I couldn't sleep. I start eventually going down these like forum rabbit holes, which I do not suggest doing.
Um, it was very like alarming. 'cause then there would be stories of people kind of like stuck like this for so long. And so that was my fear. Like they would talk about sleep anxiety and you know, just this fixation on your sleep. And that's what I started doing. 'cause then I would just be like, well, can I sleep tonight?
I don't know. Ugh. Um, and then the anxiety about it gets worse.
Yes. And then it becomes more of an issue. Right?
Exactly. Mm-hmm. The fear of the fear. Mm-hmm. So I finally go to the doctors and I leave with sleeping pills, which was not, I was hoping that I would walk in and there would be a plan or some sort of thing that I could do.
But no, it was sleeping pills. And if anyone's listening and hearing this or watching. I definitely wanna underscore that there are other things that we can do, and that's not supposed to be first line treatment, but unfortunately for me, that was what I was given. And I come from a family with a lot of mental health issues and pharmaceutical use.
So when that happened for me it was like, oh no, is this the beginning? So I start taking these sleeping pills though because I wanna start sleeping again. But then it's like night after night, this fear of am I stuck like this? So I dive down the rabbit hole to learn everything I possibly can, and what I learned totally changes my life.
Now, not only does it get me sleeping again, but it gets me fascinated in this world of sleep. Like chronobiology, the science of time and how time affects your biology, circadian rhythm entrainment, which had me turn my schedule upside down, like to what you were talking about in a good way, like the opposite of how I was living before that actually aligned with the rhythms of nature, which was life changing.
But in the process had me really see, I need to start this company. So I started sleep as a skill. Today we have a Top Sleep podcast, you know, with over 250 episodes with tons of sleep experts. Right. Which is funny because I was listening to it before I met you. Like what? Like years before.
That's amazing.
Yeah. I started
listening to it. I still have a couple episodes that are saved that, um, that I have bookmarked. I was going back through and, you know, of course as we were gonna sit down and talk, it was kinda refreshing myself and I was like, yes, this is right. I've, I've heard this podcast. 'cause I believe sleep is so important and I personally am a great sleeper most of the time.
Like, if you don't mess with me, you, I remember you saying that, that be, you're like, I have been mastering in sleep. Yeah. Yeah. I,
yeah. But I've prioritized it. Um, I really think that sleep hygiene is really important. Yes. I think that, um, having a ritual, I'm big on getting morning light every single morning.
Yes. You know, um, these kinds of things are really, really important. But, um, you know, I was gonna say that it's just like. People miss that sometimes and they don't get into it. And then when you get prescribed sleeping pills, correct me if I'm wrong, I think when you have a sleeping pill, the sleep that you get isn't necessarily restorative because you're not ne right?
You're not going through this different sleep realms, you're just unconscious.
Yeah. It's this sedation over sleep, so you're totally correct. Now, I will say there's nuances to different types of sleeping pills. So the type I was given was in the Benzodiazepine family, which we were really concerned about because it's not approved for long-term use.
So if anyone is listening and maybe taking this or considering, I highly suggest checking out. We have episodes with the Benzo Information Coalition, which is a nonprofit dedicated to helping educate on the perils of long-term benzo use. So benzos and Z drugs, which are kind of like sister type drugs.
Those are also concerning for long-term use as well. Now there's other medications that people might. Explore for kind of off-label use like Trazodone for sleep. Sometimes people are given antidepressants with the idea that some of them might skew and support sleep. So there's a whole world of this, but to your point, yes, it will absolutely impact the architecture of our sleep in various ways, depending on the medication, but particularly with the highest concern with those benzos and Z drugs.
But we still see so many people being prescribed these. Yeah. And once you're on these, it is so challenging to get off of them. Okay. A couple reasons. So one, the thinking for the short term use is like something really acute has happened. Maybe there's like a death in the family or maybe you're in a hospital and you need like sleep now.
So we'll give it you these medications and it'll kind of get you in the realm of sleep, but not real sleep. But once you're taking it for the long term. It's impacting your entire nervous system and dimming and dulling that nervous system response. And then when you stop taking that, you can just imagine that then there's something kind of known as this rebound insomnia, rebound anxiety that can come out on the other side of that.
So every reason that you started taking these initially is now gonna come back, but not only come back, but come back with a vengeance. Hmm. So now you're dealing with like a tsunami of a problem than you had before. Oh my gosh. And then on top of that, if you're dealing with this kind of rebound insomnia, then you can be now withdrawing from these medications and not sleeping.
And these can be really dangerous too, if they've done over the long term. People can have seizures and unfortunately you can die if you do it really dramatically. So that's why education around how to properly do it. You mean getting off of these things? Yeah. Yes. Yes. And I've, um, interacted with many different clients that have had very close calls with, they tried like cold Turkey.
And that's the problem with the lack of education is Yeah. You know, and doctors often don't know, unfortunately, either. So they're, you know, oh, you've been on these for a long time, let's get you off. And then thinking that it can just be this quick process. Right. How long were you on them? So, thankfully, and this is why I'm so passionate on this topic, because I feel like I kind of dodged a bullet.
'cause my whole journey with this was about three and a half months. I don't know how it could land for some people. Some people might be like, oh, that's nothing. Oh, that's a lot. But for me it feels like thank the lord. Because I know so many people that it's just decades and decades that they're on these things.
And then it is, I'm talking years, commonly years to get off of them. To the point that when you're getting off, you're getting down like slivers of it to like kind of taper. Yeah. It's a journey. Oh my gosh.
Yeah, it sounds like you've been through the thick of it, which I think, um, that, that goes along with your story, right?
When you start, you started not sleeping well. Yes. You started getting these medications and it didn't fix the problem.
Yeah. So in that process of the restoring of my sleep, getting my sleep to kind of come back on track, and I can tell you like before we hit record, I was sharing that during the midst of it, I was so at rock bottom and it was scary that some of the thoughts that I was having were just like, I can't go on like this.
And this is also really common with insomnia too, because kind of mental health and sleep are so intimately connected. And so then suddenly if you're going without sleep for stretches of time, just the mood piece can become so impaired. And so just some of the thoughts that I was having is like just really out of character.
But I'm also grateful on the other side of this because it had me really get responsible for areas of my life that were just. Not working, you know, so, and that's really part of my message for so many people that might be struggling now. So many people are dealing with, and this is for insomnia. Now, some people listening might be like, I'm sleeping fine.
Like, I just wanna improve my sleep. Which we can talk to too. But as it relates to insomnia, that difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep, my message is really clear that there's a gift available when we're not sleeping well. Because often it's the body really at this point, pretty much screaming, saying hello.
Like, there's things that we gotta do and this can be, um, this pathway to growth. I know we're talking about kids being a pathway to growth, and the same rules, I believe apply. I don't have kids, so I can't speak to that piece, which sounds amazing, but at least certainly with sleep, then it's gonna have us tap in just about every area of life that might be bleeding into our results with sleep.
Yeah. So meaning like if your relationship isn't working, like we're gonna have to deal with this and otherwise you're not gonna sleep or sleep as well as you could. Finances aren't working if your health and wellbeing isn't working right. If your lifestyle, like we, we'll certainly talk about the circadian rhythm piece and so much more can show up in your sleep.
So sleep can act as this barometer of the workability of your life, this mirror of the workability of your life. And that's really the magic. I think that's so
powerful. I like that. I like that a lot. Um, I think I've always been a good sleeper. Um. For the most part, but there are certainly times in my life
Yeah.
That I, I don't, I'm not sleeping well or I don't, I don't fall asleep Right. When I want to, and I feel this sense of anxiety. Yes. The moment that I know that I have to set my alarm or I have to get up early, like if there's a flight, anytime that I know that I have to wake up before I would naturally wake up.
Yes. I get anxiety.
Yes. Anticipatory anxiety. Yes, exactly. I'm anticipating,
I'm like, is my alarm gonna go off? Should, I'm gonna set two of them, you know, and, and then I, I just get tense. So I'd like to share with you like a couple of things that I do.
That was literally gonna be one of my questions. Yay.
Okay. Okay. So our mashup, uh, podcast.
Okay, great. Yeah. So feel free to ask whenever you wanna ask something too. Yeah. No, that's beautiful. What I do from somebody who is not an expert, but it's just something that I have found that works really well for me is that. When I lay down and I'm feeling anxious about will I be able to fall asleep?
Yes. It's happened to me on this road trip. So I'm on a road trip right now. We're in Austin, we're at your house. It's beautiful. Um, and, you know, I'm sleeping in a bed with my two kids. Um, you know, they're kicking me at night and everything, and sometimes, you know, I've, I've had to wake up. I've lost two hours coming here.
Right. So we have the time change. Exactly. Um, and then I'm, you know, if I'm starting something at, at 9:00 AM you know, that means I'm usually waking up at seven, you know, seven, um, my time, or no, sorry, seven here, which is like 5:00 AM my time. Yes. That's unnatural for me. Normally I'm waking up, up at the sunrise time, 6 30, 7 o'clock.
Mm-hmm. Something like that. Mm-hmm. Um, so I've been dealing with a bit of, I hope I get good sleep tonight, you know? Yes. I hope I can fall asleep tonight. And I'm like, I'm awake. And what I realize is that in, and I can switch this like a, like a switch is that I'm holding as my mind is still on. I'm tired.
I. But I want to be sleepy. And I think that's a big difference. Sometimes people feel exhausted, but they don't clearly feel sleepy.
Yes. Okay. That's a big, big distinction. Big distinction. Yeah. Mm-hmm. I'll tell you right
now, morning light. I know you're a big fan of it. That's a big one, because that actually starts your circadian rhythm to let you cue later, right?
That you're gonna produce melatonin at 12 to 16 hours later. Yes. And you're gonna produce serotonin when you wake up. Um, but you know, when we're on the road trip and you know, things are just different or you're just traveling, things are different. Um, or you haven't started this yet, and so you don't understand, you know, the great benefits of queuing your body for sleep.
So you're actually like, I'm so ready for sleep. Not just stressed, but in the case of me being stressed when I flip that switch. That I realize that I'm holding tension in my body Mm. As I'm laying on my pillow trying to sleep. So what do we have to do when we go to sleep? We have to l let go of all the tension in our face.
Yes. In our, in our jaw, in our shoulders, you know, and as we're thinking about things. So I encourage maybe the listeners, you know, to think back to a time when they've thought about something that really excited them or potentially, you know, drew some nervousness. Maybe, you know, maybe you're watching one of my fights, right?
Yes. I love it. Yeah. Exactly. And you're just like, ah. You know, and you're holding tension in your shoulders and you know your face and you're just, you're in that moment and you're awake and it's vibrant and great. Okay. Well, we lay our bodies down and then our mind is still racing. Yeah. So we're still physically holding tension a lot of times in our muscles.
Yeah. Through our body, which is also, I feel like a cue of like being awake. So what I start to do is try to release the tension. Okay. Like, oh, I'm holding tension. Okay. Release the tension, you know. Cognitively huge. Like consciously. Yeah. Release that tension and the tension in my face. And if I, if I really wanna get down to it every, I'll take a deep breath in and I'll start from the top of my head and I'll start releasing the tension in my eyebrows.
Mm-hmm. Releasing the tension in my, you know, cheekbones, releasing the tension, you know, in my jaw. Great body stand. Sure. Another breath and then Yeah, body. Exactly. Going down my body, you know, releasing, relaxing, trying to melt into the bed. Yeah. Um, and then I'll start from my toes and I'll kind of work with the way back up towards my head and usually by that point then I'm out.
That's perfect. Yeah, that's literally one part of the physical recommendations, so you nailed it. So that's one piece. And then I can also throw in two in addition, if people are like, you know, maybe, 'cause it sounds like you've been able to like make this work for some people. Maybe they bring this in and then they get to all parts of their limbs or whatever, and then they're, I'm still awake.
Ah, what do I do? If that is them, then a couple things. One, removing all the pressure in general from sleep is part of what our ongoing goal is because so much of, you know, sleep and pressure don't go well together commonly. And of course, like you're saying, that's what people immediately feel when they say, well that's nice and a theory, but I gotta get up tomorrow and I gotta get up earlier than normal or whatever.
Or it's an important thing that I gotta do or a fight or whatever. And so when that's the case, it's this weird paradoxical intent, which is actually an approach too. So paradoxical intent is where you're actually trying to stay awake, which is for especially an insomniac, can oddly be helpful where you're saying like, oh no, I'm gonna, I.
I'm gonna open my eyes, I'm gonna look up at the ceiling. I'm gonna keep staying awake. I'm gonna, you know, keep reading or whatever. And that is one approach. It's a backend approach.
No, I like that. That's really interesting. I've never thought about that before, but I apply this scenario in many other parts of my life.
Okay. Like leaning into emotions. Ooh. Right. We tend to, um, think of, you know, being sad. Like we always wanna be happy, right? Yes. Everybody's like, I just wanna be happy. I just wanna be happy. But that's just not a realistic state for us to live in all the time. Yeah. And I believe that when we feel sad or when we feel mad, mm, I have found a lot of power of leaning into that emotion.
As opposed to try to avoid it.
I'm going through this literally, actively right now in my life because I think for what I've seen for myself, I'm sharing with you, like coming from a background, my mom had me at like 19. I grew up with like no money on welfare in a trailer. Like there was certain things that navigating that I think now finally dealing with in adulthood, and we're talking about trauma and what have you.
Yes. And so much of what I've been ongoingly discovering for myself and with clients and what have you is leaning in to these emotions and allowing them to be there versus the resistance. Because as you know, like with sleep, if we start resisting it, that's what I was doing was like, oh no, I'm too awake.
What am I gonna do? And then I'm noticing, and then that even activates you even more, right? Or even
resisting the idea of. Of resisting sleep, which is, I think what you were talking about too is like they're trying so hard to sleep that they're just like fighting themselves where it's like, okay, maybe we do it in reverse.
And you, you, you're like, well, I'm gonna try to stay awake. And then maybe that allows you to relax enough. Like, okay, that's easy to do. Yes, yes. And now you can relax and then you just naturally fall asleep. Right. So that's a really interesting way to think about it. And Yeah. I know now, like when I'm sad or mad or whatever, like Yeah, I'll literally try to, like, if I need to cry, I'm gonna try to cry as hard as I can.
Yeah. Like if I am angry, like I am gonna like. Literally go and find a way somewhere to scream or scream into a pillow. Like, I'm gonna let that move through me. Yes. So I can set it down and be done with it, you know? Yes. Or at least for that moment in time, like, oh, I can process through it. Where I find I'm a huge fan of Dr.
G Mate, by the way, too. Oh, amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Promise specialist. Mm-hmm. Um, but he, he equates that like, you know how much energy it takes to push a beach ball down under the water. Exactly. If we constantly avoid, if we don't address, if we don't let it work through, if we don't find other ways to cycle through how we feel, or we just don't let those feelings be present because they're quote unquote bad bad.
Yeah.
Which I don't think there's anything bad Right. About feeling they're, it's human.
Yeah, exactly. I don't think
it's bad for men to cry. I don't think it's bad for women to cry. I don't think it's bad for children to cry. I think this is a natural human emotion and we should normalize it a little bit.
Yes. Like, let people move through it. Let yourself move through it.
Well, one, this is a big piece for sleep too, is, and this could almost sound so simple that it's looked over, but for further maybe credibility for this thing, I'm gonna suggest one. If anyone's heard of Doc Parsley, he's a sleep doctor for the Navy Seals, certainly, and has been credited as getting so many Navy seals off different Ambien and sleeping pills and what have you.
And so if this group is able to take this suggestion, I think it can land that it's not necessarily a soft skill, even though it can sound like it. And the soft skill is to literally pen and paper write out what is kind of on our mind. Even if it is that thing of like, well, I'm afraid I won't, you know, I have to get up so early tomorrow.
Mm-hmm. And I have this big thing, whatever, fill in the blank. Give. Give it space. Exactly. And there's something interest, I mean, we do have research to support something powerful in that process of getting this out of our heads onto paper, it feels like an action's been taken. Right? Right. And then you can also kind of draw a line down the center of this paper, left hand side, all the things that are stressing you out.
Right hand side, all the actions you can take. And if there's no action, if it's just like acceptance, you know, if someone is sick or something and it's really just a matter of us being with that, then we can practice acceptance too. Which does bring me to another piece that we can bring in with anticipatory anxiety, which is a CTI or act.
And this is acceptance commitment therapy for insomnia. I've seen this be really helpful both for myself and for other clients that are dealing with that mindset side of their difficulty with their sleep. And one of it is accepting. Well, I'm awake right now and I am not sleeping. And in the acceptance aspect, it oddly removes the pressure.
And one of the things that act brings in is saying, well, there's still benefits by laying in a supine position, eyes closed in a darkened room, relaxing and do like what you were doing, like the body scan. All of that is helping to bring down the heart rate, relax, you know, to tell the body that it's time to recharge.
It can still repair in that state. Is it sleep? No, but there's still benefits, so it's another way to remove that pressure for the body and mind. And oddly, when we remove that, it's like Chinese finger trap. Then when you're not fighting it and trying to Right, get out of it, then suddenly it like it works,
you know?
Yeah. There's so much power in that. I love this.
If you've tuned into the show or followed any of our content here at Sleep as a Skill, you may have heard that everyone that we work with wears the Ora Ring, and as a result, we have amassed a very large database of Ora Ring users and get to see what really moves a needle for people when it comes to their sleep measurably.
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What are some of your favorite things that you've discovered along the way that help you sleep better? You know, both free and maybe investments that you've made.
Yeah. Okay. Well, two of them that I have everyone start with kind of no matter what are these anchor habits.
And it kind of applies in what you were saying when I have to get up earlier than normal. Because the earlier than normal is like just a universal problem for all humans, for the most part. And particularly though with the time zone shift like you were talking to, like there's an old saying like East is beast, west is best.
So like when you're going westward. Much easier. So like when you're gonna go back to Vegas, yes. You'll be like, I got this easy. You know, it's so easy. Whereas when you go east, then that can be problematic because we can almost always stay up a little bit later and then we build up more sleep pressure, which is one of the things we really wanna, that's what I've been experiencing.
Okay. Yes, exactly.
Yes, yes. But no, and I hate not sleeping well. Once you start sleeping well, I like, there's nothing that could make me wanna miss out. Almost nothing that can make me wanna miss out on sleep. You know, it's like, let's go, you know, like go out and miss out. I was like. Uh, I'll see you in the morning.
Yes. How about breakfast? Yeah, exactly. Like house than talking.
I'm a much better version of me at breakfast anyway. You like me better anyway. I promise you so. Yeah, exactly. I love that. No, and and it's shocking to me too. This is still like this wild evolution because like I shared, this happened for me about a decade ago and before this I always had this identity, which is a big problem with sleep.
Like when you have these identity pieces, labels. I had at the, I was a super night owl and I got my best work done at night and all of these things. Oh
my gosh, you sound like my mom.
Yeah. That was was my mom.
I was so convinced of this. What, what was, let me ask you, was any of this a social anxiety, do you think?
Like did you prefer to, because I think at night you're pretty lonely, usually. Pretty solitary. Yes. Most all the rest of the world is quiet. Yeah. And you kind of get to just do you or just be you. Yes. Just
anything. Oh, totally. And we do have a kind of profile too for people that deal with insomnia and you know, again, if anyone's like listening or watching this and saying, well, I'm not dealing with insomnia.
I just wanna like optimize sleep. Many of the things that we're talking about are still gonna apply there. But when we are dealing with particularly insomnia. Then there can be like a type A personality type that seems to be more prevalent. Mm-hmm. And it tends to be perfectionistic, anxiety leaning, like, you know, this overthinking, rumination patterns, all of these types of ways of being that can also lend itself to, you know, skewing late leaning or this, that, and the other.
And also can have, and many of us can have more sensitivities to mismatch of circadian cues like we're talking about too. Mm-hmm. Some people can be more sensitive if they are not exposed to proper light dark signals than others. Okay. So that's a really interesting piece too. But yeah, so all of these things, it's one of the places we wanna begin, are these two anchor spots and the anchor habits that we wanna bring in.
You've already touched on one of them. So the light dark piece. So anchoring with first thing in the morning, getting that bright light sun exposure, getting physically outside, not from behind a window. No hats, no, you know, sunglasses, any of that stuff. And so you're getting that bright light exposure.
Tell people why it doesn't work through window. 'cause I, I do think that's really important. Yes. Some people think like, oh, I'm gonna sit behind a window, like I'll look outside and work and you know, you, no, you have to actually expose your eyeballs. Yes. To the sun with nothing in front of them, ideally.
Exactly. Well one, if we think about the average window, it's going to be adulterated light that's coming through versus full spectrum light from the sun. So that adulterated light is cutting through that beautiful rainbow effect that we get from actual sunlight. And so now you're getting the splintered light that's largely blue light rich.
Mm-hmm. So, and those people that are concerned about, you know, aging their skin and what have you, are often, and unfortunately for us, 'cause we've gotten this. Confusing information many times living indoors, so commonly getting their light from behind windows, which is very blue, rich, which is gonna be damaging to the skin.
And then from behind computers and all of this, if you're behind a window with daylight on you, you're getting all the bad things and, and none of the good things. Exactly. You're not getting that infrared light. That's the healing light. The type that, you know, all of us will spend all this money to get these red light panels and stuff.
And you can, yes. So the sun can give it to you, you naturally. That's right. Yeah. It's exactly. And so it's healing. So there's so many benefits from that. So, you know, just the easy workaround is kind of cracking the window if available to you, but more so is getting physically outside. But if you're in a car, whatever.
Crack the window, get the full spectrum light. That's what I do if I'm
driving. Yes. I try to just get like, at least the passenger side window, you know, if I'm doing an early drive or whatnot. Midday sun, I think doesn't affect what I understand your circadian rhythm as much. You definitely want it to be like that golden hour, you know, the, the ones that the influencers will wake up early for so it can get the The good.
The good light. The good light. That's good.
They call it the golden hour. Yeah, exactly. Well, and you can do this, so in case you're like, what is all this stuff about like. An app that I often suggest is the My Circadian app. And so you can get that app and then have it geotag wherever you are. I literally just went through this the other day with my mom, so I was walking her through how to do it for her.
She's in Maine, so very different, you know. So here in Austin, sunrise is around a little after like, like Daybreak is around 6:00 AM ish and then 6:30 AM for full Sunrise, and then you're moving into UVA after that. Whereas in Maine it's, we're talking like in the fours for daybreak, like 4:00 AM and then full sunrise around 5:00 AM.
And the reason I'm saying all this is it can be confusing. What's the app again? So it's called My Circadian app. Okay. And what's so helpful? Is it yours? No, it's not. Okay. That's a great one. And there are others too. There's Circadian Life is another one. But all of these can help kinda walk you through so it'll geotag you where and while you're traveling you can I'm definitely gonna download it.
Yeah. Like I was just in Nashville just earlier this week and so I had Nashville in there so then I could kind of align what time I'm getting outside. Okay. One of
the questions that I had for you too is dealing with jet lag, which I think, my god, right? Okay. So this app is helpful with like getting that.
So for further credibility, I know I didn't share my entire, like, whole story, but initially when I was traveling it was like, oh my God, I'm never gonna be able to travel 'cause I can't sleep. And, and we literally went back home to address my sleep and because it had been a one-way ticket, we're gonna be like digital nomads like Ella, Tim Ferriss four hour work week type thing.
And then we went back to address my sleep, but. And at first I was like, this is it. This is the end of my life. I'm never gonna travel again. Oh my gosh. I can, you know, and this is a catastrophic thinking.
It it, it keeps mounting, that's the thing. Yes. It starts with something small and then it's like you, you, it affects everything.
And when you don't sleep well, it affects everything. It affects everything.
Now, thankfully, after, you know, learning what I learned and going down the rabbit hole was able to successfully travel. So we did that for about three years in Southeast Asia, back and forth to New York. So out of that, tons of long haul travel.
So for anyone that's dealing with especially long haul, I like mandate that they get this other app called Time Shifter. And this is not my app either, but Time Shifter is a great app to manage that jet lag. You can also use it for kind of more short haul trips too, around like three hours. Okay.
Different. But what's amazing is they use NASA's algorithm to keep all their astronauts on time. When they're shuttling through space every 90 minutes the sun is rising. Gosh, if it's good enough for the astronaut, it sounds good enough for me.
Exactly. Exactly. And not to mention, it's beautifully designed too.
And so it has a great, you know, user interface. So it'll show you like what time to be getting sunlight. What, so you just plug in your flight itinerary, it learns about you and asks you certain questions and so in advance of your flight, then you can be adjusting time shifting like a verb so that you're actually intentionally shifting time.
And so that's part of the goal is that in days in advance, and especially for athletes and what have you, you can have a whole plan or itinerary that can show up so that you're really dealing with very minimal jet lag. Now the only thing I'll call out about this app is it really plays with light dark, and it plays with caffeine and melatonin.
But I would also urge people to play with meal timing and we have more research. Mm-hmm. That was one one. What I was gonna say,
that's one of my other tips for sleeping. Well, it's like so huge. It's, it, it wasn't until I started using an AA ring Yeah. That I, oh my God. Realized that my HRV my heart rate variability, which is a, a marker that, um, anybody can use.
But athletes, it's very important. It will tell us, um, when is a good day to really push. Yeah. And when is a day that we might need to dial it back? 'cause we're just not totally recovered. Yeah. Now I have spoken to other professional UFC athletes who are like, this thing never tells me that I'm ready. I'm throwing it away.
Like every day it tells me it's a rest day. I'm like, are you eating right before bed? Yes. Because it tanked my HRVA hundred percent in the toilet. Mm-hmm. I was like, whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa. Because then I, then I started diving into it and I was like, oh. Instead of my body being able to go into restoration mode and producing growth hormone and healing me.
It has spent all night digesting food, which could have been done during the daytime. Exactly. And if your, um, insulin levels are elevated when you go to sleep, um, it quas the production of a lot of the hormones and things that we need for sleep. Yes. But especially growth hormone. So anybody else who's doesn't wanna get in the sun, because you know a little of vanity reasons.
Yes. I'm gonna try to convince you otherwise. Growth hormone Yeah. Is something that's gonna help you stay young and feel young and have a great, you know, great skin heal better. You want growth hormone at night. We produce less and less of it as we age. So don't g yourself on this. Yes. All you gotta do is.
Is is eat 2, 3, 3 hours before you go to sleep or do you have a, do you think three or more?
So good. Okay. One underscoring what you said about the growth hormone, especially since deep sleep tends to be on the first half of the night, which is when this large amount of this growth hormone process is occurring, and if we are digesting, especially during that first half, that can.
Splinter the resources of the body, but now you're not being able to benefit from that as much. Now the timing, this is where it gets into this whole interesting world. One, one of our most listened to podcasts was with Dr. Sachin Panda outta the Slk Institute, where he's decades of research, unpacking meal timing and circadian alignment and circadian health.
So one of the things that he speaks to is two to three hours, like you were saying. Now, I'll say what I have for people is having that be absolutely our conservative place to begin. And we have one of the larger ordering databases from a sleep optimization perspective. So we have tons of data. And over the years, it's just been fascinating to see across the board just how.
Impactful. This one piece can be whoop. Also has, I was able to speak with some of the people on their team and they have a study that they're putting together around the difference between two hours before bed, having our last bed of food and four hours before bed, having our last bed of food. And what the takeaway has been was that four hours was just wildly better results.
Right. But then there are other studies, we need more studies, but there are other studies that showed early time restricted feeding, where people are stopping around like 2:00 PM and stopping to have that last bit of food. Now, I'm not saying everyone stopped at 2:00 PM but I am saying that we do see some really cool changes when people do start pulling this back even more.
So another dramatic example is Brian Johnson. You know, don't die on Netflix if you're mm-hmm. Yeah. And so his last bite of food is famously around 11:00 AM in the morning having last bite of food. So there's all different ways that you can do this, right? But what I would have people do is often experiment, definitely begin with that two to three hours, then start experimenting with a little bit earlier too.
So four hours, hours, but. The best thing to do is kind of the blueprint of the, of nature. So when the sun is setting, then historically in nature, we wouldn't have been able to really eat after that. 'cause we wouldn't have like a refrigerator or a pantry or any of those things. And you can't really go hunting and pitch black and Right.
Right. So you, you wouldn't have eaten when it was dark out. Um, plus you would be exhausted because you've been running around
all day Exactly. Trying to capture food. And you would've woken up with the sunlight. Exactly. And you would be ready to go to sleep. You would be right. It's. Yeah. So this was just handled.
And also, if anyone is, I hope that part of this can inspire, dare I say, fascination in this thing. We do a third of our lives, on average, 26 years or spent to sleep. Oh my gosh. Um, right. And yet we don't often look at it. And the average doctor has less than two hours of training, even at a Harvard Med in sleep.
So unfortunately, there's just a lot of a lack of knowledge or education around this. And I was a perfect example. I didn't know all the things that I was doing that were impacting me so negatively. I was doing everything wrong. I was eating so late. I had alcohol, I would go to bed so late. Just everything.
So when you pull back those, did you do caffeine
or do you, I mean, caffeine. Was it late? Yeah. Or after. Oh, a certain time of the day. Some people aren't as affected by caffeine, but some people are. Yeah. I think I'm pretty sensitive to caffeine. I don't, yeah. I don't, I don't actually like the way that it makes me feel because I wake up feeling really good and really energized.
Sure. And I'm, I just, I don't. I don't need caffeine. I don't need anything to help me wake up like I'm awake. Perfect. I'm ready to go. Yeah. And if I drink caffeine, I almost get anxious. Like I feel nervous. Yes. Like, I don't know how to explain, but it's just like I get a bit shaky and I bit like, like I feel like I'm not calm anymore.
Yes, a hundred percent. Now the thing if, if people listening like, I'm not giving up my coffee or whatever, then I would also recommend checking out Pyrazine if they're, what is that? So Zaine, do you know Sean Wells? No. Um, okay, so he kind of discovered this, well, kind of was able to extract this ingredient and make it more readily available.
So it's this downstream effect of caffeine. And so essentially you're not having the same jittery effects as much as you might with caffeine, but it relates to sleep because it doesn't seem to affect adenosine as much with mm-hmm. Adenosine is this aspect that relates to that sleep pressure that we're talking about.
Leveraging sleep pressure. I know a bunch of tangents, but even on that like anticipatory anxiety night, say if you are traveling and you know that you're going eastward and it's like a problem, you can leverage that sleep pressure or adenosine to help you over time. Now, it might be kind of tricky that first night, but if you still, and this is a big anchor habit of those two anchor habits, one being light dark, the second one being consistent, wake up time seven days a week and you know, some people can hear this and be like, Hmm, I'm pretty much doing that.
But half the time I look at their sleep data, they're often not really doing that. They might be doing that a a chunk of the week, but then the weekend comes or something comes up and then they sleep in to cope and they say, oh no, that was just because, fill in the blank. But there's so many just because that then that becomes a bit of wave of life.
Right. So they're dealing with what's known as social jet lag. And social jet lag is like this experience of jet lag but you didn't get on a plane or what have you. Right. So all that to say that that's leveraging sleep pressure. So something like pyrazine doesn't impact adenosine in the same ways that coffee is something you take in the morning.
Do you drink it? Do you, is it
like that? Yes. So you can drink it, you can have it in capsules. Some have it in kind of like a coffee form. Yeah. Um, there's different ways of getting it, but that could be just because I'm always a, a fan too, of if someone is not throwing the baby out with the bath water or some people are like, no, I'm not giving up my caffeine and then they just don't address some of these things.
Yeah. So then, okay, what if we try some alternatives, same rules apply with alcohol. Like, so one of the things I love to be able to give for people for alcohol, 'cause it's like the easiest thing to cut to really help support your sleep. And yet so many people don't wanna give it up. So other state changers I like to call them are like.
Kava. Um, can I love Kava? Do you live? Yes. Have you gone to the Cava Bar here in Austin? Yes, I have. Oh God. Right? How good is it? Yes, it's so good. You like the big like drink. Yes. It You're so cute. Yes, so good. It's a, it's a total vibe. It's a total vibe. And if you're not in Austin, you're like, what is this?
And you can get kava kind of liquid. Um, you can get it in different drinks. So that's one
Truva, you know Cameron Tru. Yeah, exactly. Truva.
Yeah. So good. So good. Yeah, so good. So that's one hard ketones or another one that actually has its own kind of version of alcohol in it, but it's ethanol free. And ethanol is really what predominantly impacts us with alcohol that really messed with like the next day.
I would like to try that because kava for me has pretty much replaced alcohol. Totally right. Yeah. I don't say that I don't drink because it's not like there's nothing, I never had a, like, you know, a, like a negative association with alcohol as far as like, it's never been like a problem for me. Yes. Um, but I just choose not to.
Now for the 9.9 times outta 10, yeah. Every once in a while great. Once in a while I'll have, um, a glass of wine or, you know, maybe I'll have like, I like red beers, you know, maybe if I was floating down the river or something, that's kind nostalgic for me, or yes, if I was camping or something. But for the most part, I just don't, I realize that I actually, now that I'm healthy and I've dealt with a lot of the traumas that I used to deal with, the things that I was trying to stuff away and snuff and not give space.
I was just trying to cover them up. I get that, that's when alcohol was beneficial to me. Yes. When I've given those things space and I've moved through and I've, I've learned about the health benefits. Yeah. And, you know, not drinking how negative it can be and more health benefits of having kava and these, these other things as I'm constantly learning and curious about.
Um. I just don't have a desire to drink anymore. I just don't.
That's so amazing. Yeah, absolutely. I think that was a natural evolution for me too, where historically, and going back to that, like overthinking, anxiety leaning personality, I used to have it that all being out and socializing equaled a drink in your hand, you know, for so long.
But then as you keep going, especially that's one of the, I think the beautiful things of wearables is that it becomes so clear. Very clear. I mean, we know
that, oh yeah, I've seen what it looks like after, after drinking. Oh, it's for me on my aura ring too,
a hundred percent. And I've also seen people say, oh, well it's not so bad for me.
But I would encourage them to go in deeper. 'cause some people, it's true that we might see that their sleep section of say the Ora Ring or Whoop is oddly not so impacted, at least in the short term. But then you look deeper and you can. Almost always, uh, very rarely that I wouldn't see this. All these other impactors on our nervous system.
So things like our heart rate, our HRV. Yes. Um, respiratory rate, you know, body temperature. Mm-hmm. Blood, oxygen. If you are dealing with sleep apnea, which is wildly common, you can bank on the fact that your sleep apnea is gonna go up, snoring is gonna go up. So many reasons. And for most people though, it's like, it does actually tend to help you with sleep onset.
So falling asleep, oddly. But that's like where all benefits end. 'cause now you're asleep, but it's back to like the sleeping pills, it's kind of sedation. Right. Versus real sleep. So then the quality of the sleep is messed up. Oh, I was so sensitive. I would get hot, I would start, I'd wake up at like whatever, 2:00 AM 3:00 AM Yep.
And then I'm just laying there. Yes. And then anxiety rebound. Yes. So that I'm like all the relaxation benefits that I had from that, you know, one or two drinks before, maybe more, who knows? Then all come back. Yeah. So it's kind of a natural
evolution. Same, I would say when I've, when I have, um, had a drink or two and then gone to sleep or, and because I've been, I had been using Ora ring for quite a long time now.
So I have data before I prioritize the, my sleep in the ways that I do now, thinking that I'm always a good sleeper, so it's not that big of a deal. Sure. And then the information was just so powerful. Anytime that I would eat late or I would, I would consume alcohol, even one or two, I'd always get this little notification like, oh, your heart rate lowered late last night.
Yes. So it didn't, it didn't lower when you went to sleep. It took a long time for it to actually lower what? And I was like, oh, why is that? And then, you know, you start diving into it. Yes. And you're like, oh, because my body's still working.
Exactly. It's working. It's not resting.
And that's, um, the situation that so many people get themselves in when they wake up in the morning and they're like zombie-like, yes.
And then they need the coffee and then it's like all these coping mechanisms. Yes. And then they do the nap. All these things come up and then it's just a vicious cycle. Yeah. So, so good on you for then diving in because that's my hope is that this fascination gets sparked because then when we transform this area of our life, I mean our whole lives are transformed essentially.
Yes. Yeah.
So let me ask about this because there might be some people listening to this, um, and they're like, oh, well that must be nice to just be able to wake up with the sun. Yes. I have to work at midnight. Mm-hmm. Or I have to go to work at 9:00 PM and I work until, you know this. Like, yeah. So I'll tell you my experience at the, the UFC Performance Institute where we have a lot of great technology and they've begun diving into sleep for athletes.
And, um, they will use bright lighting to help cue because if the, if, if, now I recommend the sun first and foremost. Yes. Yes. But I was curious about this even for jet lag potentially, you know, if you're going east, right? Yeah. And you wanna start getting, you yourself maybe used to waking up before your son comes up where you're on the west coast.
Totally. Yep. Like, are you, you know, an advocate or, or, or, um, do you pro promote, you know, a bright lighting people to help them get that wake up signal? That wake up time?
Yes. Yes, yes. Okay. And I think. Especially shift workers. If, and you know, this could apply to different people that might have different schedules or traveling a lot, but especially if you do have kind of an out of the norm sleep schedule, that and certainly is off kilter from the rhythms of nature, it becomes even more important for you to hear everything that we're talking about because these are the groups that really can struggle.
And we see things like fertility impacted. Yeah. Our cardiovascular health, our mental health, our waistlines. Mm-hmm So diabetes, our blood pressure, I mean just, uh, yeah. Elevated cortisol all the time.
Right. Except so many things. Cancers, certainly breast cancer and prostate cancer have clear links to kind of bright light exposure past our normal timeline, you know, that we normally would exposed.
Right. So that's how it can be dangerous if you having these bright lights. Yes. Later at night. If you wanna have a good, it's at the time, yes, exactly. Wrong time.
Yeah. And so one of the other things I didn't mention in the beginning is that now, today, on the other side of creating this company, one of the groups that we work with a lot is high stakes poker players.
And they're in right environments designed literally on purpose to confuse the circadian rhythm. Right.
So they're in, oh, it stresses me out. Now when I walk into, oh gosh, a place like that and it's nighttime, I'm like, head down my, I got my blue light blockers on. I'm just like trying to get, you know, where it is it, because I'm in Vegas.
You know, so sometimes it happens, or you know, you'd be like, your, your fights or whatever, you know, you're staying. Sometimes we would be staying at casinos, you know, we would be, we would our hotels there and it's like, I don't wanna be awake right now. I'm actually going to bed.
Yes. Um, so yes. Okay. So talk about that.
Yeah.
Because those, like, what are the cornerstones of, um, casinos they have. No windows, they have no clocks. They have tons of blue light at all hours of the day. Lots of stimuli. And for these poker players, 'cause many, they're high stakes players, so there's a lot of money on the line. So the stress is either of the kind of negative kind.
Mm-hmm. Like they just lost a lot of money or can be eustress. So positive stress, maybe they just won a lot of money. But either one is stressful for the body and then it's like, okay, now go home and go to sleep right away. So that, especially when it's tournament players. So if they're gonna be coming back the next day and need to be like cognitively intact for sometimes 10, 12 hours at a time, I mean these are like cognitive athletes, so it's a big problem for them.
'cause this environment is like fighting against them. But I would say that the big thing to be aware of is that even though this can sound so foreign, that I would argue that many of us are closer to those poker players than we might realize. I often say in 2001, the EPA did a study, they found that the average American was spending well over 90% of their time indoors.
Uh, it's called the indoor generation. Exactly. Exactly. And so then, and they might think, well, oh, I got the windows and, you know. Right. And we, as we touched on, now, I will say windows are better than a closed darkened room, obviously. But if you, the app that I was mentioning, the My Circadian app will allow you to test the luxe in your environment.
So you'll be able to see. Wow, okay. So even in a room with Windows, often it's gonna be sub 1000 lux. Almost always. Now there are exceptions, but it's a common number. So we might see like. 200 looks in an average Starbucks say, or like 500 looks, something along those lines. Whereas if you go outside on a bright day, it can be well over a hundred thousand looks.
So this is a tremendous difference and it tells the body a lot of information about what time it is and what to be doing when, and the super matic nucleus, which is kinda our master clock, is basically right behind the eyes. So it makes sense that it would be so linked up with this light dark piece.
Right. So for shift workers. Yes, you gotta leverage and want to make sure that you're learning the skillset of your light dark aspects of things, which I love about your podcast. That's why sleep is a skillset. I'm like, that's so, it's so true. Like anybody can sleep better with some effort.
Yes, exactly.
And I wanna absolutely underscore too that for anyone if, because I've also seen people get way down the rabbit hole and get into the perfectionist realm with sleep. Now they're, they're tracking. Like I have some people that come my way and they're like four different trackers and they're stressing out about their sleep.
And now this is taking them away from, so our aim is to, it's a really weird paradox with sleep where, and it's different for everyone. And it's different for everyone. So it's like so strange because it's this mashup of prioritizing, supporting sleep, right? Learning about sleep at the very same time.
Granting ourselves grace and humanity to, you know, sometimes have a rocky night and trust that we'll get back on track. That we're, you know, not fragile, that we're resilient. We had a sleep coach for the Olympics on the podcast and one of the things he spoke to was almost really working with his athletes to prepare to have this idea that you're probably not gonna sleep great the night before the Olympics.
Like, you know, you have all this stuff riding on, this has been your whole life building to this and a lot of pressure, and if you do, great, but if not trusting one that with sleep banking beforehand, right. Where as in like you're really just prioritizing your sleep, taking care of your sleep, right? That you can trust that the body can rise to the occasion.
Yes. Essentially. Yeah. Yeah. And there's so much there from the mindset piece, but. I would say the big takeaway with all of this is learning to mash up how to, from the first moment we start our day knowing that the day is what has us win the nights and how we're managing this. And then just one last thing about the shift workers.
One of the things I'd often have them do is create this circadian crafted day. And with our circadian crafted day, it's basically like from the moment you first wake up, when are we getting that bright light exposure? What are kind of our routines and habits? How are we dealing with some of our stress load?
How are we dealing with, you know, meal timing, exercise, timing, thought timing, which is a really fascinating one that our thoughts are different at different points throughout the day. Which one? Study. If people are interested in this, we did an interview with one of the lead researchers of the Mind after midnight study, and they found that our types of thoughts post midnight is very, very different than our normal day thoughts.
So tend to be more stressful, more kind of binary, black and white thinking, catastrophic thinking. And sadly suicidality rates going up in the wee hours of the morning. So, you know, real world consequences of different changes in times of how the body is managing this. So I would argue that if someone is gonna be living off of the normal rhythms of nature, it's behooves them.
It's even more important for them to really dive into this, to support themselves. And that often will involve like faux treatments, I guess you could say. Like light, dark, maybe red light therapies, but really dialed in rhythms. Yeah.
That's so fascinating and really, really great information. Um, there was a couple things as we were talking about that I wanted to chime in on.
I was like, I also use an app that's, it's not directly for sleep, but does tell you about when the sun rises and when's the best time to get U UV ray for vitamin D, which I know is really important for sleep. Yes. So important. It's hormone. It's not just the vitamin. I don't know why we call it, you know, just vitamin, I know it needs like a PR team.
It does, it does. It needs to really get it out there in the forefront because it's. So important. It's called D Minor. Oh, D minor's. Great. You love that one.
Yeah, totally. Yeah. Yeah. I recommend that for people too, and especially so you can like ease in, you don't have to get like sunburnt, you can see what time of the day and you start to get familiar, you know, with with, with like where you're at with your vitamin D levels and kind of tracking that and stuff, which I think is a essential for sleep.
So part of the reason that I moved to Austin was because I had been in New York, which is a Northern Latitude location, so it's virtually impossible to get vitamin D through certain periods throughout the year. Mm-hmm. And then there's certain things you can do to mitigate this, but I would say for ease of lifestyle.
Moving to a southern latitude location if available. And now this sounds ridiculous 'cause people are gonna be like, are you kidding? So if not, there's, I'm not saying you can't get well at any latitude, right? You certainly can. Well,
honestly, and especially if you have a darker pigment of skin. This is, you know, I mean this is nature.
People near the equator generally have darker skin 'cause they need more protection from the strong sun ray and people more towards the light, you know, north typically have lighter skin as we see it typically.
Yes.
Um, but, uh, yes, but we don't, we don't spend enough time outdoors anyways now. So we're really behind the curve.
So, so if again, you know, you and I make effort probably to go outside. Yes, we're very mindful of it, but we still are gonna spend compared to how we would've, our ancestors would've been a large amount of time inside. Totally. So it. Makes sense that even though lighter skinned, that if we only get, you know, that, you know, we get 30 minutes, let's say it's a busy day and we get 30 minutes in the morning, it's a low uv.
Yeah. We get 30 minutes, you know, or an hour or two when we come down as the sun is going down, we're still not getting that much. Like at least we're in a place where we can have access to that. So it is something to keep in mind.
Yes. And this has real world, so we can talk about this quantifiably. So the Fitzpatrick scale is the scale that people can find themselves as far as their skin tone, where they fall.
And this impacts directly the amount of time that you need to be outside to create sufficient vitamin D. And this goes to some real problems and inequalities that some of the kind of thrown out advice mm-hmm. Can be often guided for white, often, you know, European nature, you know, um, background for some of the recommendations, um, from the studies that we're pulling just these old school studies.
So with this, one of the things that we see is that it can be a recommendation that might apply for. A lighter skin tone person, but if we go further down or further into this Fitzpatrick scale. The darker skin tone you have, the longer you need to be outside. Yes. And the stronger of Sun Ray that you need.
And this can impact so many things. So certainly our sleep, but also our mood, our overall wellbeing, um, mitochondrial health. And we see things like there's a really cool, if people wanted to take a look at MS rates and which is linked with mitochondrial health. You can see the 37th parallel seems to be across the globe is a clear indicator of a very obvious marking when you go north of the 37th parallel where there's way more rates.
So where is the 37th parallel? Where does it fall? Um, so it actually goes right kind of above Vegas. So Vegas is on the kind of positive side. Yay. You. So it's kinda like right below the 37th Parallel kind of goes in across California. And then it goes around like the Carolinas and what have you. Okay. So if you're sub that, then way less rates of ms If you go north of that far, more rates of ms, like quantifiably.
So my nana, my grandma has ms. She has the kind that, um, it's like, um, every time she has an attack there, there's two different kinds of, every time she has an attack, she'll still get back to like 99% of what she was before, but will never be like 100% again. But it's not the kind that's like, um, like chronic where, you know, she has it all like all the time.
So she has like less sensitivity in a hand, you know? Yes. She'll be more likely to drop things and it's like slow, degenerative kind of situation, but it's not the most extreme version of ms. But she, um, she was, and my dad grew up in Connecticut.
So those Northern Latitude locations? A hundred percent. Yeah.
So for my Northern Latitude location clients, so people are like, what are you talking about? So I need to move or not? Well, that's kind of ridiculous. So I'm not saying that necessarily, but I'm saying that we want to one, educate of just how important this is. Two, if we are in Northern Latitude locations, a couple things that I suggest for some of my clients.
So one, you can get vitamin D from a lamp source, which many people don't realize. Um, I was on celebrity Big Brother three,
and I was, I wanted that so bad.
Oh my God. That I didn't realize that. And that is amazing because yeah, we were locked inside. Like I thought
we were gonna have access to the outside and we had this little faux outdoor area, but they had like, you know, that, um, semi-transparent kind of tarp, uh, plastic, you know, cheap throwaway plastic people throw it down from when they're painting or whatever.
Yes. Like painting a room. It was like that, but it was covered. So like, you couldn't, you didn't really get. Real daylight. And my circadian rhythm was a disaster on that show after six weeks of being under those bright lights. Yep. With cameras all the time. And like I would try to go to sleep. There wasn't clocks, there was one clock on the microwave.
You know, you'd have to like go all the way through the house and it's always stressful. And then sometimes they would wake, you know, like be like, don't fall asleep. Or they'd have like, I would fall asleep. Or they'd have to wake you up for an interview and then you go in this room and it's like. Bright lights in your face.
Yeah. I was like, this is terrible. Sleep
nightmare. Yes, it was totally. Okay. So smart of you to be like, could I bring in some sort of light source? So one is called the spurty lamp and lots of popularity went up in popularity during COVID because we linked vitamin D with like the pandemic piece, viral load, et cetera.
So that's one lamp you can get. And that impacts your immune system a lot. Vitamin D. Exactly, yes. Another one is with chroma. So Chroma has one that I really like because it's. Split with red light too. So you're not just getting pummeled with this bright, bright light, which you are getting some bright light with the chroma, but it's mixed with this red light too.
How intense is it? Are these like if you So intense you can burn like Oh, you can literally burn your skin. Okay. So you have to be super careful with them. Okay. Yeah. And they're not cheap either, so they are an investment. But if you were to get some of those, the fact that you can build measurably your vitamin D load from a light source is pretty nuts.
So you could use that as kind of like a supplement. And some people say, well, why don't I just take an actual supplement? And yet we do have concerns that, that we're not getting many of the same benefits with the supplementation of vitamin D versus actually getting that light source. Yeah. It depends
how you absorb it, I think a little bit and stuff.
And you're going, it's going through your stomach. It doesn't always mean if you take 5,000 or 10,000 IUs that you're actually gonna get it. And that's hard to measure. Exactly. It gets a little difficult. I mean, the sun does a beautiful job and I don't think there's any supplement for it, but totally sure if you can eat more vitamin D or you take, I'm sure it's.
Better than nothing, but you know, bang for buck. Yeah. Prioritize the sun. Prioritize the sun. Exactly. Okay. If you're under one of these lamps though, um, what was the question I was gonna ask? Um, are you getting the wrinkling, you know, the UV right? That people are Yeah. Yeah. I mean you need that right? To get vitamin D.
Yeah. And that's the thing. But um, at the same time, that's where the crucial piece of that red light aspect can come into play. Because skin healing. Skin healing, yeah. The sun also heals the skin. Yeah.
That's the thing.
Exactly. And so this is where it gets so layered. And then also if we are spending so much time indoors, for many people the concern is could there be a misattribution error of this whole skyrocketing 'cause it doesn't quite.
Makes sense numbers wise, where now so many people are wearing a sunscreen. Yeah. We're indoors all the time and yet skyrocketing rates of skin cancer. So how does that add up, you know? Right.
Yeah. I mean, I guess some people could make an argument. They're like, oh, well people are spending so much time inside that when they go outside they get really, really burnt.
Well, of course burning is not good for your skin or for skin cancer. That's why I'm always at the moment that I see that UV raised or you know, I'm always getting my kids out in the sun all the time to try to get them to build that solar catalyst. Build that, yes. To build. Um, I also make my own sunscreen now because I think that the chemicals that are in sunscreen are worse for you than probably just being in the sun, to be honest.
Totally. Yeah. Or. Be a sun or shade person. Just yeah, just get in, get in the shade. Like if you need, like, if you've had enough. And that's where D Mind is helpful. Yes. Huge. I always look for that for my kids. And when I was down here, so we stayed, um, we were in Waco before this, we stayed at Camp Ffo and um, I'm looking at the D minor and I'm like, it's, it's a UVO index of 12.
I'm like, oh. You're like, oh man, my gosh. I was like, lather the, you know, the sun Uhhuh we're using my homemade sunscreen and everything. I was like, lather it on, reapply it. I was like, and normally I'm not very much of a Nazi like that because I'm like, you know, my kids are tempered. I do everything to try to protect them or I'll put the clothes, but I'm like, look, this will burn.
This will burn. We, because in Vegas we haven't seen anything above an eight yet.
Mm. So
I was like. To be out for hours in water play. Yeah. You know, but we were successful. We did not burn. Sweet. Yay. Yeah. I got a little, I think I forgot to put it like on the inside here, so I got like a little bit. Yeah. Or maybe I did and I didn't reapply a little bit, but the kids were good.
We, you know, we, we got through it relatively unscathed. Yes. Um, but yes, yes. I'm with you. Oh
gosh. Okay. I love that. Yeah. 'cause this can be such a fine line and this is such an important piece and everything we do at sleep as a skill is really on the blueprint of that light dark piece. So getting brighter days and darker nights and putting into there all these other, 'cause these are known as kind of zeitgeber or time givers to the body.
Yeah. So light dark is a time giver. Temperature timing is a time giver. Um, I know you'd asked like, what are some of the things that I do for sleep? Yeah. And cooling mattress toppers have been game changing. I need that for my rv. Yes. I mean, it just makes such, especially here, it's hot. It's hot, it's really, it's really hot in
an rv.
Yeah. As we're going through the road trip, that would be amazing. It makes such a difference. Okay. What are some brands, because I, I've thought about, I've also thought about grounding. Yes. Is there one that's grounding and cooling? Do not. I know that's what I, i's what I want. I know. Pick or choose.
Unfortunately. Well, you can do some work arounds. So I've been able to do certain kind of strips of grounding over top. So you're still getting but more on the feet. So that's one aspect. Okay. But the main two that I recommend are chili, sleep, and eight sleep. And they are both really, really great different things for different people.
Now with chili, basically you can have on one side. Mm-hmm. So that's, you know, an option for people if they just have like a twin mattress or just for them and or they're single or whatever. Does the ground outside
naturally have a cooling effect?
Yes. Oh my God, this is one of my favorite things. This Yes.
Why? I'm
like, okay, that, so we would've been sleeping on the ground.
This is one of my favorite topics. Exactly. Because people would be like, come on, do you really need to have this fancy thing's? So b you're talking about like ancestral health and all this, but it actually, we already sleep on cushy elevated beds
with pillows, which is so not how we evolved.
Right, exactly. No, you nailed it. So that's one of the coolest things is that, that you can make an argument that oddly cooling mattress toppers are bringing us back or mimicking how we used to sleep. And if we used to sleep largely on the ground, which would be the coolest part in the environment. And then you can also make this argument.
There's, or theories that may be why like weighted blankets are so valuable, or calming to us could be like heavy hides or things that we used to use on top of us. Uh, there's something about it that feels safe.
Yeah. I don't know what I, I don't know how to dial that back in, but, um, like a tactile experience and a pressure.
It's, it's, it's, it's tensional too that, um, that children, um, well, like we used to. We got it. Yeah, exactly. Um, there's a potential that children, um, maybe we were like covered, you know what I mean? Like at night too. Like, I even think about that. Like for safety purposes or anything like that, you know? Um, that they were, that they had things on them to like hide them.
Yeah. Or even while they were taking naps. Right. You think like you're gonna hide your child and something. Make sure that they're safe while you're, if you had to forge, I, I mean maybe you're carrying a child. Yes. Anyways, there's, there's a lot of, you know, thought that you could think back to why potentially something weighted on us or, you know, your parents' arm over you or sleeping, you know, I mean, these things just feeling safe and comforted.
A hundred percent. My children all the time, like when I read to my, my daughter, she's like, she wants to be like, to get like with me, like on me.
Feels like a hug or something. Wants feel like embraced. Yes. By, by me. It's, and I think by that safety aspect, when I was on Celebrity Big Brother three, um, I had never used weighted blankets before and it helped me so much.
It was like I was, became a big fan of weighted blankets at that point. Yeah. Yeah. 'cause it just was like, oh, I feel. I just feel safer to explain. Oh, that's
great. If previously there weren't as many studies to point to, a newer one just kind of came out fairly recently. That seems to further underscore that kind of subjective experience that so many people would have.
There is some research that people could go to as to a why for this having an impact, but certainly the experiential piece of it is. Very clear. And then the other thing too, I feel bad 'cause I feel like I have so many questions for you, so we'll have to do some sort of part two. One thing I would love to do real quick is we do ask every person we have on the podcast for questions about their own sleep.
Yes. So maybe that could be a good way to Yes. Let's do it. Get in there. Okay. So our first question is always, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now? And it could involve travel or whatever could be helpful.
Oh, absolutely. So I'll talk about currently travel right now. Um, I have taken red tape and I've covered our RV lights.
Love it. Okay. Yes. So we have this very like, kind of, uh, it's a fun vibe. It's very, you know, it's very romantic. You know, our RV, once the lights go down as everything's red, um, the kids enjoy it. Um, they, they think that it's neat. Um, and, you know, we tape over any other lights, like blue lights, anything like that.
We're making sure we're really getting it very dark in the rv. Um, and then the moment that it, you know, it's time to wake up, I'm. Pretty light sensitive. Me too. So too, as soon as I notice that, you know, light's coming in from the cracks, I begin to lift the window shades gently so that everybody can start to get, you know, I wake up Yeah.
And I'm feeling good, and then I'll kind of slowly so it's not abrupt to the kids or anything, but I'll slowly start bringing those up. 'cause I want that outside light to come indoors. I do the same thing when, um, you know, at home. Yeah. I close everything down as much as I can, you know, and then as even a little tiny creep in of light is gonna, it's gonna wake me up.
Totally. 'cause it's been so dark. Yes. That when the sun comes out, even coming through the cracks of the shades or behind, you know, the curtain. Yes. Like, I will be sensitive to it because it's, it's a drastic change from it being pitch black.
Yeah.
Then I will begin to open everything. I go outside. Um, you know that five, five minutes.
Two to eight, uh, two to 10 minutes. I, I love listening to Andrew Huber Man's podcast, by the way about Yeah. So helpful. Sleep help. Sleep health. Okay. Mm-hmm. I also make sure that the lights at night are off or very low. Everything is kind of that amber toned, I've switched my light bulbs out to those. Nice.
And, um, I, I'm a fan, uh, for, for the children of nightlights. Mm-hmm. Because I learned in that podcast that the way that our eyes are, that. Yes. The sun, when it's above us, shines down into our eyes, which we have receptors for light to wake us up. Yeah. It's just part of our biology. Yeah. So when we have strong overhead lights at night, it's not good for us.
Yeah.
So I also have like, I have a lamp actually in our bathroom. It's like nobody has lamps in their bathroom. Right. I know. Yeah. But I do because, um, I'll either set it on the floor or the shelf. I'll cover it with like, something to make it like amber tone. 'cause it's too, I can't adjust it. Unfortunately the lamp doesn't have a dimmer on it.
Um, but I'll manually adjust it to be dim, but I want it low so it's below my line of sight.
Yes. And low solar angle.
Yes. Yes. Low solo angle. And children are actually almost twice as sensitive to melatonin, dere, uh, suppression than adults are. Mm-hmm. By this bright light. So if your children are having trouble sleeping at night, a really good tidbit to take away is like, get lights low and like low on the, literally physically low.
Yes. But also dim. So good. This helps so much with my children. I think they have pretty good little circadian rhythms themselves. I'm so happy to hear. 'cause I think that there's such, you know, we see so many like, sales of melatonin for kids, like through the roof.
Yes. And that's a hormone. I mean, I just don't, we don't really know.
I'm not saying that it's not good or safe. Right. Um, what I generally understand is that melatonin is not something that you would wanna use beyond like a two week thing, which I would never, I almost never use melatonin unless I'm like going over to see my friend in Switzerland or something. Sure. And that's like's like maybe on that occasion.
Yeah. Mm-hmm. When, when I land and I'm like wide awake, okay, then maybe I'll use it. But then I'm trying to wake up with the sun again. I'm trying to get right on that. Yes. Schedule. Um, but those are a couple things. You know, there's, there's probably a little bit more than that of course. You know, I already talked about relaxing and things, but those are the, the big things for, I'm a light.
Love this. I'm, I'm a light. Guru. Yes. I'm very particular about light exposure at night. I like that too. It's huge. Oh, I love those. And for your kids too. So like the whole family is benefiting from this and, and I try to get out for evening light if at all possible. Like as the sun is going down, I know that that can actually cue your body again, that it's ready for sleep.
Yes. So then even if you do have blue light, there's, Andrew Huberman was talking about this, how if you get evening light, you'll also be a bit protected of the harmful effects of blue light. Yes. So you can Yes. Blue
light inoculated essentially, right? Yes. Yes. Exactly. So I, I try to do that with my children too.
I love that. Okay. Well that could bleed into our second question, which is what does your morning sleep routine look like right now? And I say that on intentionally with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep.
Yes. Perfect. So when I first feel myself waking up, it is, um, this beautiful sensation where I almost get a tingling feeling on my skin, almost like the hair on my body is going to, it's like standing up.
It's not exactly how it is, but it's like this kind of wave, if you will, that comes over me. It's like I take this deep breath and I'm like, I'm clearly now awake. Ooh. And it's just so, I love that. Yeah. It's so, it's, uh, I don't, it's, maybe it's unique to my body, but it's, it's like, it's very clear to me.
It's like, okay, we're, we are awake and what a beautiful feeling. Like I'm not stressed, I feel rejuvenated. I love that.
And then I lay there for about five minutes and I decide what I want out of today. Mm. And I think about that. I'm like, okay, what do I want out of today? Do I wanna make sure that I'm, you know, and I kind of run through my vision of the day.
How long have you been doing this? That's amazing. Um, at least a year, maybe more. Okay. A year, year and a half. And this is a really, you know, pretty steady morning ritual for me. I take that first five minutes, it's to myself, I'm not looking at my phone. Mm-hmm. Um, and I'm just thinking like, what is it that I want out of today?
And, you know, some of it's kind of like to do list a little things. It's not stressful, but it's like, okay, that's right. Okay. I have this podcast, um, oh yeah. Okay. I'm gonna prepare a breakfast for the kids before I go. Oh. And I definitely wanna make sure I get my workout. Yes. Oh yeah. And I'm, I wanna be, I wanna, I wanna go see this thing, or I wanna go do this.
Okay. I wanna make sure I do that. Okay, great. I think I have a little bit of a game plan for the day, then I pop my little head off the pillow and I, I run right on, on my deck. Oh my God. I love that. And I, I look towards the sun and I try to get, you know, that two to 10 minutes of exposure. Sure. Yeah.
That's.
Beautiful. And I love it. 'cause that's a huge piece of sleep management too, is creating your day and life, arguably, versus, you know, reacting or responding, so. Right. That's beautiful. Okay. Amazing. I, I actually haven't heard anyone say it like that, so That's so cool. Okay. And then our third question would be, what might be visually see on your nightstand?
I know we're in a bed environment, but so what would you see on your nightstand or maybe in your, in your environment if you're traveling? Right. So right now
I have metabolic freedom on my Oh, Ben. Yes. Love Ben. So good.
I'm just starting it. But, um, I usually have a couple books. Yeah. Um, and I have my blue light or my blockers, my glasses.
Um, I have my ora ring charger, which my ora ring actually just stopped working. It was so frustrating. It was like, I put it on the charger one day and then it just like stopped. So I need to, I need to buy a new one. Okay. So I have that. Um, I also have, I usually have floss picks 'cause I, oh my God, I just ordered some on Amazon last night.
There like, so oddly enough they're right there on my nightstand. Um, and then, um. I have like this, uh, what is the supplement? Is it El Citruline? I think it's, oh, Athenian. Maybe. Maybe it's, it's one that, it's not exactly for sleep, but it's for, um, if you, if your insulin levels are low, it helps your growth hormone.
Oh, okay. Interesting. Yeah, sure.
Yes. Um, maybe we can put it in the show notes. 'cause forgive me, I now Okay. I'm just not for sure, but I think it might be citruline. It's something that I learned, um, from Andrew Huberman. So, of course, as I learn these things secondhand, sometimes it evades me when I try to recall exactly what it's, but I have it there.
And, um, you know, when I'm doing that good piece of, like, if I know that I've had four hours since I've eaten, I'm like, yes, I'm gonna give myself a little boost. I'm training hard, I'm a bit sore. If my body's queuing me that I need more restoration, that's the time that I will, I will take that and then that's great.
Um, oh, I also have my red light device there. Ah, it's kind of a crowded nightstand, if I'm gonna be honest. It is not, um, as you know, it's not cute and, and pretty, it's got a lot of things that I use. Yes. And yeah, it's, it's a little, it's utilitarian. Yes. It's, it's a little crowded.
I love it. Okay. No, it's perfect.
And they all have great use cases, so Amazing. Yes. Okay. And then the fourth question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the management of your sleep? Or set another way? Biggest aha moment with managing your sleep.
Well, I feel like understanding that, that. The only part of our brain that is exterior is our eyes.
Yes. And how important our eyes are to our sleep. Yes. We just don't think about that. We we're in a modern world that's go, go, go and it and it's pressing us for our time and we're always trying to maximize and so we, we lay down and we have our phones right in our faces and I, it, it actually, I, I can't.
Describe to you how, uh, frustrating it is to sometimes see people like my mom, people that I care about, or, or Johnny, I'll be like, turn your brightness down. Yeah. The sun has set Yeah. You, you don't need a flashlight in your face. Yeah, exactly. The brightness all the way up on the screen. Well, I can't see it.
Well, I was like, well, you just, you, you're not seeing because your eyes are d you know, dilated down to like, be able to deal with this bright light. Yes. So then of course, when you first turned it down, you haven't given your chance a chance to adjust. To adjust. Yeah, exactly. So I have night shift mode on my phone.
I actually also, like if I, and which I'm guilty of, I'm, I'm definitely gonna be on my phone there at night in my bed. Yes. I'm not gonna change that, I don't think.
Yeah. And there are ways to mitigate, like, it doesn't necessarily have to be. It's being mindful of like what the content is on our phones.
Right. And the lighting. Yes. So it doesn't have have to be all or nothing. And how it makes
you feel like whether it keeps you up or not. Now I have made it, you know, I've justified this for myself that this doesn't affect me negatively. Yes. And maybe it does. Um, I'm, I'm probably just making excuses, but I sleep well and this is one of the things that I'm feel like I don't need to budge very far on.
Mm-hmm. Because I have these weird little things that I do that I think make a difference. I put my red light blockers on. I turn my brightness down, I have the orange light on my phone, and I'm also tilt, I tilt the phone a away from me. So it's a little bit more facing the ceiling.
Yeah.
As opposed to above me, where it could go down into the, like the light receptors.
Yes. So I tilt that and I kind of almost peek over the top of it. Yes.
Okay. These are. Beautiful. Okay. So you have a whole kind of litany of things that you're doing to support your sleep and clearly your results are there. Like that's the big thing. If it, if it's not working, then we address things. But when it comes to things like the use of the phone, we can actually sometimes backfire.
There can be cases when people have like this 27 step process Oh, to fall asleep and then they become stressed about their sleep. Yes. So if it's bringing us joy, if it's not a problem, like lean into it. Yeah. So I love all these and I feel like we could talk 9 million hours and I feel like there's still so many questions that I Well, you're gonna be in Vegas again.
You said you, you come out there often. That's base. Yes. So we can definitely do a part two. We'll do a part two. Okay. Fantastic. So for people listening and they're like this amazing human that clearly is committed to our health and wellbeing, they wanna be a part of your world. How can they best. Kind of follow you and do all that?
Well,
if you wanna follow me, it's u usually just at Misha Tate, M-I-E-S-H-A-T-A-T-E. Um, you know, my website is a great way, if you wanna, you know, subscribe to my newsletter. I try to keep people apprised of all the fun things that I'm doing. Yes. And, you know, my favorite things and products and tips that I'm learning along the way as a professional athlete, you know, um, having fought in the UFC for so long, you know, I'm, I'm, oh, I almost had to say, I was like, oh, I'm approaching 40.
I just turned. So, yep. Right. So I'm, I'm still in
the top 15. I'm still competing. I, I have two children. Um, I've just learned so much along the way, but it's, it's, um, a chance for me to pay it forward is through my podcast. Mm. And that's why I'd really love people to follow this next chapter of my life.
It's called Built for Growth. And, um, you know, just listen and take away from all the great experts and yourself included. Mollie, thank you so much for sharing this today and, and then as well for you. Yeah, I mean, since we're gonna share this mutually Yes,
I know. Our split podcast. Yes. I love that. We rolled at, this is perfect.
Yeah. So you can go to sleep as a skill.com. There. There's all kinds of things that you can do to take action on your sleep, whether you're just kind of sleep curious or really struggling. We have a sleep assessment you can take and to get kind of targeted information back to support your sleep automatically.
We have or ring audits. We do a lot of these where we audit your ordering data, give you tailored things back that can support shifting your sleep results. Also, next
time we talk about it, let's get you off, but I'd love to talk about sleep in women's cycles. Oh my God, we'll have to talk about that.
That's fun. That's a whole fascinating topic's. Exactly. Okay, we'll do that.
One of my favorite things is my newsletter. I've been sending that out for almost seven years, every Monday. Never missed a Monday, and so just, I really enjoy writing those and it's been a great way to kind of maintain community.
So people will send back like screenshots of their like whoop band stats and their, you know, their, or ring their BioTraps or whatever. So really encourage people to also share, you know, things that they're getting out of that. We have online courses and then if people are looking for additional support, really struggling, then of course we have one-on-ones and other things.
But truly my mission on the planet is to help support people with their sleep. I really feel like I dodged a bullet. I feel like I could have gone down the path of still taking medication for sleep and a whole pro, you know, as we talked about, this can open a whole can of worms. And so I just really want for people to know that there's this whole path available, that this can actually be one of the greatest gifts of your life is this period with your sleep.
And even if people are listening, they're like, my sleep's fine. I just wanna improve it. That that can be an opportunity too in growth and development. Yeah.
Absolutely. That's beautiful. Well said. Thank you.
Well, thank you. You've been listening to The Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.
Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years in counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep. Head on over to Sleep as a skill.com/newsletter to sign up.