Seth Jones, CEO of Superstratum, a company turning home detoxification into a simple, DIY process from everyday cleaners to whole home protocols. Seth’s story is wild: he went from DJ nights in L.A. to battling mold and mycotoxin exposure in his own home, then building science backed solutions that help families breathe (and sleep) easier.
Seth Jones, CEO of Superstratum, a company turning home detoxification into a simple, DIY process from everyday cleaners to whole home protocols. Seth’s story is wild: he went from DJ nights in L.A. to battling mold and mycotoxin exposure in his own home, then building science backed solutions that help families breathe (and sleep) easier.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 From DJ to building science: How Seth’s mold crisis changed his life and sleep
😴 Are your sleep problems linked to unseen indoor air issues?
😴 Mold vs. Mycotoxins: Why toxins matter more for sleep
😴 Did modern airtight homes trade energy savings for poor air?
😴 Basement truth: Much of your home’s air rises from below
😴 The remediation gap: Why mold removal doesn’t end the problem
😴 Super Stratum’s 3-step system: Clean, gas, and long-term coat
😴 Air cleaning decoded: Filters vs. ionization explained
😴 Multi-cluster ionization: Why some sleep better right away
😴 HVAC mistakes: Oversizing, humidity swings, hot-cold cycles
😴 The Goldilocks target: ~50% humidity for sleep and health
😴 Testing without stress: When to swab, inspect, or act
😴 Morning light magic: How open blinds reset circadian rhythm
😴 Yoga at sunrise: A 10-minute flow boosting energy and sleep
😴 Cleaning habits as part of sleep hygiene
😴 https://superstratumlabs.com/?ref=sleepisaskill Enjoy 10% discount use code: SLEEPISASKILL
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GUEST LINKS:
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DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness.
And I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome back to The Sleep As a Skill podcast. Today we are diving into one of my favorite intersections that of sleep and the nervous system. Our guest is Johnny Miller, founder of Nervous System Mastery. A course that's helped hundreds of founders and tech leaders cultivate, calm, reduce nervousness, and feel more alive.
Johnny's path into this work is deeply human After profound personal loss and a period of burnout, he realized the through line was the nervous system, and he turned that insight into practical tools that anyone can learn. In this conversation, we reframe sleep as a skill that emerges. When the nervous system is supported.
You'll learn Johnny's three lanes of self-regulation, top down, bottom up and outside in, and how to use them when you're wired at 2:00 AM. We'll unpack somatic approaches beyond just DO yoga, why NSDR can be a game changer, and how environment design turns your bedroom into a true sleep sanctuary. We also talk about the half-life of reactivity and why progress isn't never getting triggered.
It's recovering faster. Stick around to the end for Johnny's personal wind down routine light hygiene tips that you can steal tonight, and a simple breathing cadence to downshift on demand. If you've ever felt stuck in the loop of anxiety, poor sleep, more anxiety. This episode is your exit ramp, so let's dive in.
But first, a few words from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep, and one of the first questions people ask me about sleep is what supplement they can take. One supplement I've consistently taken for ages is Magnesium, specifically by optimizers, magnesium breakthrough.
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Now imagine having the strength and energy to get outta bed every morning, face the day boldly, and maintain that energy throughout the day and into the night. If you wanna give it a try, go to buy optimizers.com/sleep as a skill and use the code, sleep as a skill to get gifts with your purchase. And this is a limited time offer, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill Podcast. Our guest today, Johnny Miller. Johnny, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
It's great to be here, Molly. Excited.
Yeah, me too. We had an opportunity to chat before we hit record and lots of. Exciting crossovers and I think complimentary content around how we can think about some of these topics, sleep and nervous system, and how they're really have this opportunity to be a skillset, a new way to think about these areas.
So can't wait to hear more from you, but maybe we can begin with your story of how you became an expert in this area.
Yeah, totally. So, I mean, let's see. Going back. Uh, I, it's probably like the inception moment for me was, was loss. Um, I was engaged to an amazing woman, Sophie Spooner, about seven years ago, and she had bipolar disorder and she ended up taking her own life.
And that kind of threw me into this, uh, journey through grief, which lasted, you know, several years. Um, and as part of that journey, I realized how I'd been essentially like numb from the neck down, quite disconnected from my emotions, from, from my body. And I really just went head first into the world of what, what I later realized was that the nervous system was like the common thread between all of these things.
But initially I was like, I just like, like how do I, how do I feel this? Like how do I kind of. Support myself through this process. And then that kind of later unraveled into just more curious exploration around, um, like exploring my internal state. I think, I think I'd always been fascinated by, you know, I was a big traveler.
I had an adventure kind of travel startup when I was in my twenties. And I think that like curiosity and like love, a love for adventure kind of got turned inwards where I then was like viewed the inner landscape as like the kind of the territory for adventure.
Oh, I love that. Kinda reframe. Amazing. So you discovered this for yourself, right?
You discovered that your nervous system, really, you wanted to explore more around this, but what had you then take this from your own conversation to bringing it to the world? How did that kind of evolve?
So it was never really planned from the outset. I was working as a startup founder coach, so I kind of taught essentially like coaching founders in a more traditional way that then ended up working with a lot of founders who'd been through burnout, which was, you know, my journey as well.
I'd burnt out when I was working at the startup that I was involved in. And then I then ended up doing some collaborating on some workshops around emotional resilience. Mm-hmm. And this was kind of for high performing leaders, tech CEOs, like those types of people. And in those workshops, it was really the nervous system stuff and the energy management and day architecture that like really resonated with people.
And that's also where my aliveness was as well. So I actually, I, I think I sent a tweet out being like, I'm thinking of like putting together a course called Nervous System Mastery, like, would anyone be interested in this? And the response was, was amazing. Wow. And people were, were basically like, like, can I send you money for this?
Like, does this exist yet? And I was like, no. I guess, I guess I'd better build something here and that was about, that was about three years ago, and so I've just been kind of like refining and learning and iterating since then.
Oh my goodness. Okay, so you started this platform, you had this kinda response.
Clearly people could use some support with their nervous system, and when we think about nervous system regulation or dysregulation and sleep, what have you seen? How do you think about those two? How, how they intersect?
Yeah. Well, as we touched on before we hit record sleep is something that I think is, um, almost like one of the first symptoms of some level of dysregulation.
Yes.
It's almost like, like consistent and deep sleep is almost like one of the first things to go.
Mm-hmm. Um,
and so I think there is, you know, a very, very. Intertwined relationship between sleeping well and regulating your nervous system? Uh, we, I mean, we can unpack that in many different directions, but I, I'd say, um, I mean for also from my personal experience as well, like the times when I'm feeling most stressed and I have a lot of my plate, like, that's typically when sleep seems to be, it's less restore, less restorative.
So it's uh, totally, there's, there's almost like a one-to-one relationship, I would say.
Totally. We do have a lot of people listening that are dealing with some form of insomnia, so difficulty falling asleep or staying asleep to, you know, varying levels of the severity. And so one of the things that they can get really stressed about, and I've dealt with insomnia, that was part of the origin of this whole company and the fixation, which often we see with nervous system dysregulation as well.
Of something's wrong. Oh no, well now I'm not sleeping, so what's this gonna further do to my nervous system? Or you know, so that kind of vicious cycle, I guess you could say. So how do we unravel that if then now you're not sleeping and now it's making your stress worse and your nervous system regulation more pronounced?
How do we kind of pan back and help support that?
Yeah, well, I mean, I'm both curious to hear your thoughts on this as well, but this, the approach that I tend to take is I think about. The self-regulation piece. Yeah. In kind of three main categories. So self-regulation is essentially like, how do I, when I'm feeling overwhelmed or anxious or stressed, how do I kind of downshift and find presence, uh, and kind of find myself again?
And I think there's three categories of self-regulation that I, that I think are, are useful to share. Uh, the first is, well, I'll, I'll just share with three top down, bottom up, and then outside in. So top down I think of as like everything that is cognitive. So whether it's like cognitive reframes, whether it's like, oh, I'm stressed because I really care about this thing, or actually this thing isn't a big deal.
Or zooming out, you know, all of these tactics that, you know, coaches typically have that, um, are, are helpful to, to some degree. Um, but I think the second category of bottom up interventions are actually. Probably more effective at, uh, at the goal of just downshifting your nervous system and kind of like reducing your heart rate and finding ease and relaxation because we're working with the kind of physiological levers that we have that can, uh, get us into that paray parasympathetic state.
So two, you know, really easy examples would be one is something like humming. Um, for an extended exhale, releases ni dioxide is a dilator. Um, or I'm sure many of your listeners have tried some form of breathing practice where the exhale is twice as long as the inhale. Mm-hmm. And basically when, when the exhale is twice as long as the inhale, it creates this.
Instant kind of parasympathetic effects, which tends to, um, like a lot of people think that it's the thoughts that create the state, but it's that we actually have this bi-directional relationship. And so if our body starts to calm down, then the thoughts that we have as well kind of follow suit. I think if the, the mind is almost being like.
The PR team for the body. It's like we just like tell a story about, oh, my body is like freaking out. There must be all these things going wrong. And then the, the body finds stories to kind of latch onto that ke that keep us in these loops. Um. So that's the second one. And you know, we can kind of go into that more.
And then the third one, which I imagine you work with a lot, is environment design. Mm. Which is essentially how do you create the conditions in your external environment to be conducive for the state that you want. And I, I think sleep's a great example because sleep isn't something that we do, but rather we like create the conditions for sleep to arise.
Yes. I don't like, I don't think sleep, I actually like, like if I have low lighting candles, relaxing music, maybe some nice scents, darkness, like a sense of sleepiness will tend to arise from that state. And so.
Yes. I, I didn't think I correct you, but it made me, it's kind of pertinent to your love affair of, um, surfing.
Mm-hmm. We had someone, I think it was someone with breather fit, if you've seen that breather fit tool. They use an analogy of sleep and surfing and they said that great surfers, I mean, I'm not a great surfer, so I don't know if this fits for you, but they mentioned great surfers will look for creating an environment.
For a great experience, right? So they'll look on the weather, they'll see like where the waves are hitting, and they'll get their gear and they'll do all the things, and then they get out into the water, but then they kind of just like wait for the waves to come. And the thinking is that that's analogous to sleep in, that we kind of create this environment, we do our things, but then it's just a matter of like accepting, letting go and seeing what comes and trusting that that will come.
So I love that. It's a really, really good call way to describe it.
It, I was actually just checking the surf report before we, we hit record here.
That does check out. Alright. There's, there's,
there's some good waves here coming, coming here today. Um, oh yeah. So, and, and I think, you know, there's many different, um, factors that you, you, you know, you can get really nerdy here.
People get like the eight sleep mattress. You kind of ha like play with the temperature and you can really adjust the variables. There are
actually, yeah.
Great. Yeah. I, I haven't eight sleep myself. Uh, I, I think they're great. You can really kind of play with these variables or like, you know, to what degree do you allow yourself to see blue lights after sunset, for example.
You know, there's, there's all these things that I'm sure you and your listeners are very, are very well versed in. But the general principle is we are constantly kind of co-regulating or attuning with our environment. Also the people that we're around. Yes. And so specifically for sleep, after the sun goes down, we want to.
Kind of be in an environment that is conducive to a parasympathetic kind of downshifting state. Yeah. I actually, I forget your original question, but those are the three, those are
beautiful. Sorry, I know I put up on tangents and No, that was great. Yeah, because it is this kind of complicated puzzle of, and sometimes like a chicken or the egg, like, you know, just people start sleeping poorly and the nervous system gets dysregulated or is it just nervous system dysregulated and then sleep goes awry.
But either way you cut it. They're certainly intimately connected. And so when these things kind of begin to unravel and aren't working, do you see a lot of progress for people? So in case they're like, oh no, am I just really a lost cause? Can I? Help heal this nervous system to support my sleep. Do you see sleep healing quickly for PE or not quickly, but over time for people as they bring in all these practices?
No, I don't think that's, but I'm kidding.
We don't wanna scare all our insomnias. Yeah.
Yeah. I mean, it's, it's, it's definitely possible. I, I think there's, there's almost a role of like, of kind of being a, a detective work and kind of running your own. Experiments and, and I think that's kind of one of the key principles that I like to teach in the course I do is around like, it's, it's like designing your own experiments and then, you know, using data, HIV, things like that to kind of see does this work, do I keep doing this?
Like, what else do I try? Um. I think when it comes to, you know, if someone's very dysregulated and let's say, let's say they have a very low HIV, they're kind of very easily triggered. Um, definitely, you know, feel fragile, overwhelmed. I think, you know, maybe that's a different approach to someone who's like a high performance looking to kind of optimize like yeah.
Where they're at. Um, what I tend to see is that in the. In the early stages, uh, people can kind of dysregulation like ping pong between hyper and hypo arousal. Mm-hmm. Hyper arousal is kind of like, is like fight flight, like anger, frustration, kind of a lot of energy, but kind of slightly overwhelmed. Yeah.
And then that can, then, it's almost like a fuse will go and they'll go down into, uh, hypo arousal, which is more of like the kind of collapse, shut down withdrawal, lethargy, maybe depression, and people can kind of ping pong between that. Um, and I think that as you are able to like increase your nervous system capacity and kind of, kind of build resilience, um, that those swings get less and less intense over time, um, as you kind of learn to kind of find safety in your body, essentially.
That's kind of part of what we're, what we're practicing is this sense of like, like embodied safety that isn't contingent on, on anything around us. Yeah. There's, I, I think there's quite a large kind of, um, emotional component often in the, in this work as well. I, I talk about, um, dysregulation essentially being downstream from accumulated emotional debt.
Mm-hmm.
What what I mean by that are these like undigested emotional experiences where something intense happens to us that we're not able to fully kind of metabolize or digest. Yeah. And so it gets buffered. It literally gets stored in our, in our system for later, um, through, I believe, through like latches in the smooth muscle tissue.
But that's, that's a different tangent, but essentially it gets stored in our systems and. The more of this emotional debt that we have, the more fragile and prone to dysregulation we become.
Mm-hmm. And so
I think that let you know, if I was working with someone on sleep specifically, I would kind of recommend like a multi-pronged strategy of like both.
Like let's fix the environment, let's fix the kind of routine, let's like create the conditions for sleep to arise. As much as possible. Yeah. And then once all of that stuff is in place, then exploring some of the more, also the, the kind of self-regulation practices and just like learning how to downshift effectively.
Um, but then with the, with the emotional pieces, um, it's really. I find like a common or, or helpful way in, like what are some of the emotions that you avoid or that, that you're kind of unwilling to feel? And often I think of anxiety actually as not like an emotion, but more of like a way in which we resist or constrict against feeling underlying emotions so often.
Anxiety will arise when someone has anger they don't wanna feel, or sometimes even joy, like I think a joy, anxiety is a real thing. It can actually be quite vulnerable to feel joy and excitement and people kind of resist that. And that creates this, this actual like, felt sense of anxiety. And then stories kind of compound that and people enter those vicious cycles that you, that you mentioned earlier.
But, um, anyway, I'm, I'm going on more tangents here, but like No, I love it. Bring you back into like Yes,
exactly. Totally. No, that was great. Okay. So if you're working with people on sleep specifically as you pointed to, we'd address that environmental aspect of things, but then also exploring this ability to tap into downregulation, tap into safety.
And then it seems to be this like buzzword nowadays as well. I mean, maybe not just buzzword for, but for good reason, but this idea of kind of somatic approaches maybe could help kind of unpack more of that. And honestly, we haven't done enough episodes on this kind of. This piece of the nervous system regulation.
So this is really a great foray into this. So if you could kind of unpack some of that. 'cause people might think, well, does that just mean I should go to yoga? Or what is, what does that mean?
Yeah. So great. Um, so I, I'm very, let's say like bullish on somatic work in terms of just, it's, it's like effectiveness.
Sure. Honestly, I, I think it really is at the root of a lot of these, these challenges, um, where to begin here. So I think, um. I mean, one starting point, and you know, this was true for me, I wasn't really very aware of like my internal state. I felt like I was like numb from the neck down for a period of time.
Yeah. And so actually just, I think initially it was like meditation that kind of explored, explored my body, but then I started to, you know, take that into everything, into like working out into running into. You know, even in conversations like, how do I feel in my body whilst I'm relating to another human?
Yeah. I'm almost viewing it as a practice of like, it sounds, it sounds ridiculous, but like actually tuning in to be like, what am I experiencing in my body right now?
Mm. And just
having that be a habit. Um. And so over time, what you can do is you can, you can build up what's known as like your, your feels like a database of like somatic markers.
So instead of waiting until your system is like an eight or a nine out of 10 in terms of anxiety, you, you notice when it's like a two or three out of 10, you're like, oh, I noticed there's like a constrict, a constriction in my chest. Like, huh. Like I wonder why that is. I wonder what's here. And then you, you kind of explore it.
And I, I mean, I believe the body like naturally wants to. Kind of return to homeostasis. And so it's actually more just about noticing what's there and then like allowing, almost like asking like, Hey, what, like what does my body wanna do? What, what does it need right now? Like, maybe it just needs like some hydration.
Maybe it just needs some water. Maybe it's like a, a rest or, or, or a lie down. And I think. You know, once you, once you are somewhat in tune with what your body actually needs and you are, you spend less time overriding, then it's more about kind of developing a, like a toolkit of practices that you can draw on in the moment.
So one that I really love for, um, practicing this skill of downshifting, I think it really is a skill of like going from, you know, at the end of the day you've had like kind of intense. They have focused slow output, like how do we downshift and, and come down? Um, and I think NSDR nons sleep deep breast is fantastic for this.
Yeah. Um, it's also really good for training the interception because you're kind of doing this body scan like through different points around your body and there's a, there's a real skill to kind of like. Soften and surrender and relax into that. And I think it's, it's, it's training a muscle, honestly.
Like, like anything else. Um, so I think NSDR is a great practice and a great starting point, but you know, there's, there's many others. Um, some people, some people prefer the more kind of like intellectual visualizations, other prefer the, the more physical somatic approaches. Um, I think it's just good again, experiment, see what works for you and then repeat.
Absolutely. I love that. Are your daily rituals supporting your sleep or sabotaging it? I study sleep for a living and one of the most underappreciated disruptors I see is too much caffeine, too late in the day. That innocent second cup can keep your nervous system wired. Make it harder to produce melatonin at night and ultimately wreck your deep sleep.
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And they also have an evening blend that I use as part of my wind down ritual. It helps your body downshift into a more relaxed state so you can transition from go, go, go mode to real rest. Naturally. Now their starter kit includes both blends and a free thro. You know that like thro, 15% off and even 45 days of access to their meditation app.
So you can start building sleep friendly rituals from morning to night. Now you can just head on over to www dot mud water. Spelled wt.com/sleep is a skill to grab your starter kit and start supporting your energy and your sleep. You can also check out in the show notes for that same link as well. So for people listening, if they're really saying, all right, it's likely I could use some support with my nervous system, I, I know, and usually we save this for the end, but I understand you have a cohort.
I wonder if you can kind of just paint the picture of what this might entail for people in case that's something that they might want some support with to kind of go through a journey like that, that might help their sleep.
Yeah, sure. So, I mean, I've, I've done my best to kind of distill the skills into a five week program.
Okay. And, and the, the core skills we've kind of touched on quite a few of them. The first is interception. Okay. And like also noticing what your kind of reactive tendencies tend to be. So it's like a self-awareness piece. The second is really focused on cultivating calm or these self-regulation practices and just giving people like a buffet of things to.
To choose and, and try. And then the, the fourth week is the emotional piece. So I have a practice called somatic surfing, actually coming back to surfing again. Nice. Where you're basically, you're like riding the emotional waves and it's like a kind of intro into somatic work.
Right. Um,
and like welcoming the full spectrum of your experience is kind of at the, at the core of that.
And then the end is the, the environment design piece. So we actually have people build their sleep sanctuary, be, uh, beautiful to kind create the conditions for, for sleep as a, but you can also do it for like your office or Right. You know, a place that you wanna socialize. Um, and so that's, that's really the arc of the course.
We have like guest teachers come in to talk about specific, maybe it's a DHD, maybe it's public speaking, anxiety, things like that. Um, but that's, that's the approach. And my, my aim is to kind of. Give people the tools to kind of make myself replaceable to some degree so that they can then continue experimenting with the knowledge and, and the skills that they have.
And you mentioned anxiety. Do you feel like many of the participants that come through are dealing with anxiety in particular, or depression or both? Kind of like as you said, the up and down state? Or is it hard to say?
Yeah, so actually like 35 to 40% of people come in. Come in Like with anxiety? Yeah. Or like anxiety being a presenting symptom.
Okay. Um, and then burnout and A DHD related challenges are probably kind of second and third.
Okay. So
I think anxiety is certainly a big one for a lot of people.
Yeah, absolutely. And we see that with sleep all the time. Okay. So before we shift over to hearing about how you're managing your own sleep, are there any other major things for us to address that you've seen or that you think about with sleep and nervous system regulation or trauma or safety that you wanna hit on?
I think like one thing to maybe kind of name is that like, it's not necessarily like. A linear path. Like when, particularly if you start kind of going into and unpacking this like emotional debt, then it's not necessarily like incremental improvements. Like sometimes you might bring something up that actually creates more dysregulation in the short term, it creates more intensity.
And so kind of having support like. In that initial phase, um, can be really helpful. And then on the other side of that, once it gets integrated, then there can be kind of like step changes and improvements. But, um, I mean, I, like I did a, to be totally candid, I did like an MGMA guided journey a few months ago that created a, like lasting 30% increase in my HIV.
And,
and
I was, and also like a lot more openness in my hips and souras area. Just a lot of tension got released in that space. And you know, I'm not saying everyone go out and do an MDMA journey. Obviously there's like legal, legal concerns of things, but that type of a deep somatic work, I believe is what creates the kind of lasting.
Changes.
Yeah. Amazing. Do you see that? 'cause that's interesting 'cause um, so funny, I was just talking to a couple people that were planning to bring on the podcast to speak more on psychedelics and sleep, any call outs for you if people are considering something like that and if they're dealing with sleep issues like any.
Concerns, contraindications and or just things to speak to with specifically to MDMA and mm-hmm. Trauma. We're seeing just so many amazing things, at least in the positive as far as the, like the author of Body Keeps the score and his call out around, I was like, 50 years of exploring all these different modalities for trauma.
That MDMA being one of his most promising in his eyes. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. A wild endorsement of this approach. Mm-hmm. So any college for you or are you still exploring it from the personal side of things? What do you see there?
Yeah, I mean, there's a lot to lot to say here. I, so I interviewed, um, Marcella, who was the lead therapist on the maps MGMA trials for, for phase two and phase three.
And so, I mean, honestly, that was a whole podcast In terms of like what she recommends in terms of the journey itself, I, I would say, you know, the most important thing is having a very skilled, ideally, somatically trained guide. Uh, if you are, if you're new to this work and that it's also possible to go quite deep without the MDMA, like, the MDMA will definitely, I think, allow, you know, more safety and like more things to arise.
But you can have, you know, similar or equally profound experiences using, say, uh, gentle breath work or just using somatic experiencing hakomi. There are many of these modalities which. Enable the same outcomes that people get through MGM Aguigui journeys, um, that I would recommend as almost like, um, kind of getting your training wheels first.
Yes.
And like learning how to like up and, and down regulate during, like in journey space as they call it. Mm-hmm. And then once you've done kind of preparation, then maybe explore something like MGMA if that is available legally, wherever you are. Um, yes.
Love it. I know. And. On that topic, are you seeing people that are maybe trying different things that are involved in your programs or what have you, exploring other avenues around kind of psychedelics or plant medicine and ketamine being one that's mm-hmm.
You know, kind of come up in vogue as far as it's, you know, the access anyway as far as legality, but any cos on any of those other options?
So we, we had a, we had a, um, experienced ketamine guide therapist, uh, in our last cohort as a guest teacher. Okay, great. And, uh, I'm actually, I'm actually doing my first journey on Saturday, so,
oh my God, I haven't, I haven't
experienced ketamine myself.
What I, I guess my hesitancy around it is it can create or promote. Disassociation to some degree, which is helpful for like getting perspective. Yes. But in terms of actually staying in the body and being with whatever's arising, yes. Um, I guess that's why I haven't been drawn to it up until now. But I'm also curious and I have friends who've, who've said, you know, it's really helped them in certain ways.
So, um, I think it's definitely something to kind of. Explore, like as part of the wider toolkit.
Sure. Absolutely. And that 30% HRV increase I'm sure is gonna be very interesting on, on the MDMA front. Interesting for many listeners. 'cause many people tuning in are tracking in some way, shape or form, whether it's mm-hmm a whoop biot, strp, apple, whatever.
So something along those lines, really. Mm-hmm. And you said that's a couple months now.
More like over a year.
Yeah. Oh, a year. Oh, I missed that. Okay.
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
That's incredible. Okay. And is that one of the things also that you're finding for nervous system regulation too? It's like, we can do a lot of these practices and of course they'll make such a profound difference, and that sometimes it's the getting to the root of some of these traumas and mm-hmm.
Or is it layer.
Yeah. So I mean, this is, it is a great, a great question. I think there's almost like an initial kind of like capacity building piece where, uh, there's, and there's a real sense of, we didn't talk about this, but there's a real sense of like agency and confidence that comes online when you first know that like, hey, what, when my anxiety starts to come up, I can just do this breathing practice and I'll feel.
Okay. Again, and I can get through my life and it won't derail me. Yeah, so there's a real sense of like empowerment and agency that comes online there. Um, and I talk about this as like the self-regulation paradox, which is that if you only use these practices to kind of self-regulate away your feelings, you're kind of just adding to that pile of emotional debt over time.
So at some point you, you have to kind of go down the emotional route as well. Um, which, you know, typically comes later for people and when that happens, um, you know, there's usually, like, for me, initially it was like, it was grief that I was kind of exploring and then I realized I was out of touch with anger.
And then the MGMA journey was actually around helplessness and like abandonment. And I like went into like a much younger version of myself and like felt through that. Helplessness, and that was part of what released the tension in my hips, which led to the HRV increase. And so it's almost this kind of like unfolding, unfolding journey where you just peel back the onion layers.
Wow, that's so amazing. Okay, well, so encouraging for people to see that there's all these different roots. And I know you're saying too, um. About that. There could be some beautiful things that can come from these practices, but if we're trying to like shove down things or mm-hmm. Fix something, then that can often be a bit of that trap.
That was something I dealt with when I was dealing with that whole bout of insomnia. Mm-hmm. I was grasping for like, everything that I could do to fix it and make it go away, and so, mm-hmm. It would be like using great modality, great tools, you know, breath work, meditation, yoga, all the things, hypnosis, whatever.
But with the idea like. Background hum. Or context was like, I'm broken, fix me, type of thing. Mm-hmm. And so it seems as if, I love that you're pointing to that. These are all great, and yet it's like this blend of the intention being so important too, and clearing out some of those cobwebs of some of the things we might be dealing with.
Yeah. Beautifully said. Mm, I agree.
So shifting gears, we do ask every person that comes on the podcast for questions around how they're managing their own sleep. And considering you've thought deeply about this management of nervous system and downregulation, I'd be so curious what your answers would be.
And the first question is, what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now?
Yeah, so as I mentioned before, my wife used to be a sleep coach, so we both have like a really kind of, I'd say, solid evening routine. Um, sure we've been going to a nearby, uh, like sauna cold plunge in the evening after work as like, I kind of like downshift routine, um, but then typically come back.
I like to do some stretching if I can. I usually do a workout in the morning and so stretching in the evening, maybe listening to music, playing with our puppy, and then, um. All of the, so we, I, I got quite anal and I like set up our lights to kind of, all of the lights in the house go on Amber after it goes like post 6:00 PM it's just automated and so the lighting is dim.
We tend to try and avoid screens, certainly no phones after like six, 7:00 PM Um. And then, let's see what else. I also wear blue blockers if I'm out and about, um, supplementing with magnesium as well, which I've tried a bunch of different su like supplement sacks. I think magnesium's the main one that, that I found that seems to be helpful.
Um, what else do I do? Um, I mean I typically, I will be asleep within like. Two or three minutes of like hitting the pillow when I, so sleep is actually, it's not been an issue for me. But, um, so we also, we used to mouth tape for a long time. Um, I'm pretty sure that I'm a, a nose breather now, so I've, I've stopped doing it recently, but I ex explored mouth tape for a while.
Yeah. What else comes to mind? That's everything that comes to mind right now. There's probably other things that I do that I've just forgotten about because they've come so habitual.
Yeah, it sounds like it's working, so it's like It's definitely
working.
Yeah, not working that we're like, ah, I've got 28 steps and blah, blah, blah.
No, that's great. Okay, so that would give us a glimpse into your evening routine, and how about your morning routine with the idea that how we start our day could impact our sleep?
Yeah. Yeah. Actually one thing I will mention is like the, the times when I notice it's harder to fall asleep, it's almost always because I've been engaging with like messages or my phone or WhatsApp or email in the two hours prior to falling asleep.
I think that's like the one thing that if I avoid that my sleep is, my sleep is great. Yeah. In terms of morning routine, so I like to, I like to have some kind of, some kind of movement, some kind of like meditation or breath work. Um. And also ideally getting outside and looking at sunlight if possible. Uh, it's been super cloudy the last couple of days, so it hasn't really been possible.
But normally, I dunno, get up around six, 6:00 AM do a workout, meditate for about 30 minutes. Um, sometimes with tea I've been drinking pure tea. That's been really nice.
Mm-hmm. And
then, um. Get outside. If the waves are good, I'll go. I'll go surf instead of workout, which is also nice. Really nice. You see the sunset?
Yeah.
In, in the elements. Um, that's a really great way to start the day. Um, and then yeah, usually get to work by about nine after, after some breakfast.
Okay. I love that. Beautiful. And then, and you mentioned too, that you might be moving even to a new location with more beach access, it sounds like. Yes.
Beach is a big part of that whole lifestyle. Love it. Okay. And the third question would be, what might we visually see on your nightstand or maybe ambiance and environment in your space?
Yeah. So, um, in our bedroom we have, uh, we have some like sono speakers and I think music can be really helpful for both unwinding in the evening and also like waking up gradually in the morning.
We kind of have like a, a morning playlist that comes on
nice in
instead of an alarm. Um, also with like gradual orange lights. Um, on my nightstands, uh, magnesium blue blockers, if I'm reading, um, book, I'm a big fan of like fantasy fiction. Uh, so like sometimes reading with before Bed Wizard of Earth has been amazing.
Recently by Ursula g Guin.
Oh, my husband's really into. Those fantasy kind of approaches too, and has Yeah. I'm sure could go to town on those topics.
Yeah. Yeah. I, I mean actually I think like some form of like fictional fantasy mm-hmm. To kind of engage that part of our brain before sleep is probably pretty helpful.
Yeah. We had a friend that an also came on the podcast that author around. Sober living. So she wrote the book, the Un Bottled Potential, and she calls it fiction after five is part of her rule, you know? Yes. That's great. Yeah. Yeah,
that's great. I love that.
Amazing. Okay, so that's some of the things that we'd see in your environment.
Yeah. And then last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep game? Or said another way? Maybe biggest calm moment in managing your sleep.
Yeah. Well one thing I, that I didn't mention from the previous question is, uh, my phone and technology is like not in our bedroom anywhere.
Okay. And that, I think I made that change like maybe two or three years ago. Okay. And that makes such a difference. I mean, the quality of my day where I don't look at any kind of inbound messages for the first like two to three hours. Yeah. It's like, it makes such a difference. Um, so that's, that's one thing I'd say.
I mean, one, honestly, one thing that made a difference was the eight sleep initially, especially when we were in Colorado, because I just got so hot. And like having good temperature regulation made such a difference when it came to actually sleeping well. Um, I mean, that's a very kind of practical and maybe obvious thing, but that, that was really helpful for me.
Well, I'm glad you said
that. No, totally. 'cause especially it becomes obvious when you have them, when you have Right. Right, right. Pulling options. But for so many people, they're like, what could this really, would it make that much of a difference? And once people get it, it's like, oh, I get it. Especially then when you're without them, when you travel and then it's not there.
Oh, yeah. Mm-hmm. That's the only issue. So then you kind of are addicted.
Yeah. And, and then pro, probably the other answer that I give, which is, uh, is adjacent, is having A-N-S-D-R practice, you know, three to four times a week. Um, even, even when I sleep well. Um, which is honestly most of the time I still like to do a kind of 15 to 20 minute NSDR after lunch if I, if I have the spaciousness in my calendar.
And that, it just feels like such a good reset. Yeah. Um, and it's, I think it's also helped me to fall asleep faster in the evening as well. I don't have, like, the data that's just, you know, n of n of one.
Yeah.
Anecdotal, but I think learning and practicing NSDR has been. A huge game changer as well.
Hmm. And for people that, I mean, we've definitely spoken about this on the podcast, but people are new to it.
Do you think of that exclusively around like yoga, nidra, other practices?
I, I mean, it's basically derived from Yoga Nira. Um, I have a few recordings that I put out that, uh, I guess like more kind of science based and, and simpler. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I mean there's a whole branch of, of Yoga Nira as, as I'm sure you know, I think it's wonderful.
Beautiful. Love that. Okay. And so did that. Also speak to that last question around what's made the biggest change to your sleep game thus far?
The other one, the final one would be becoming more sensitive and attuned to like my light environment.
Mm. Um, yeah,
to, to the point now where like, I'll be the guy who, like, we might go around to a friend for dinner, uh, and they're like, I'll be like turning their lights down like 50% on the dimmer switches because it's like,
yes.
It's like,
it's like too intense. Two intense. But I think that I, I mean, I've become increasingly sensitive to bright lights after sunset.
Yeah.
Um, and I think that has also really contributed to my capacity to just fall asleep on a very consistent schedule and like, um, when I want, generally speaking.
Yeah. Absolutely. Oh, it just makes such a difference. And I love that you've kind of set up the automaticity in your space so that you don't even have to think about it for the most part, it sounds like. Ugh. Yeah, exactly. So good. And would you say, have we left out anything in this huge topic of nervous system regulation, thinking of nervous system as a skill, now it relates to sleep?
Anything, any parting words on that?
Yeah, I mean we've covered a lot of ground in a short space of time. I know. I think maybe, maybe the one thing I do wanna share to kind of like set expectations for people that I think around, I think of the journey of nervous system mastery as like, not like you will go through life being like perpetually.
Calm and placid and like never getting reactive in any way. Yes. But I, I think of progress as reducing the half life of reactivity. Mm-hmm. And what I mean by that is instead of, let's say something happens and you're anxious or angry for like three or four days, that gets reduced to like, with some practice, three or four hours, which then gets reduced to like three or four minutes.
And so, yeah. That and like knowing that no matter how triggered you get, you will be able to like a, kind of find calm and downshift and then B, maybe even like feel through it and kind of find more clarity and emotional freedom on the other side. Yeah. Then in some way, like I almost start to like. Like, look for, not look forward to being triggered, but like when it comes up, I'm like, oh, like I wonder what, there's something here for me to learn.
I love that and, and I'm not concerned that it's gonna like derail me for the next like few days. So I think that's maybe helpful to share as like a piece of broader context for people wanting to explore this work.
Yeah, absolutely. And you know, if people are coming in, we talked about this conversation of potentially sleep being like that Trojan horse effect, that if people are listening just with, well help me sleep better.
But then what's possible is with nervous system regulations, some of the things you're touching on. What could become available is not only sleeping better, but a better experience of life and that management of those triggers and beyond. So Well said. And speaking of in case people you know now are after listening are saying, Ugh, I need support with this.
I know you've got lots of different offerings, including that cohort that we touched on earlier, so how can people work with you, follow you, et cetera?
Yeah, totally. So the best place to go is the, the, the website, which is ns mastery.com, and the website has links to a self-assessment, which is a pretty comprehensive self-assessment with recommended protocols.
There's a link to the iPhone app, which has some of these, um, DOWNSHIFT and NSTR practices people can use. And then there's also the cohort, which we, we run twice a year in spring and fall. Um, so there's one coming up soon depending on when this podcast gets aired. And you can apply for, we'll try to get
this out in time.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. Great.
Oh, amazing. Okay. So we'll make sure to have all those links in the show notes. But I really just wanna thank you for one, sharing your story. And you know, I'm so sorry about the origin source of, you know, how this all began, and yet I really acknowledge you for taking such a challenging period of time.
And then not only supporting yourself, but then supporting so many others on the other side of that. Just incredible. And then also for taking the time here today.
Thank you, Molly. Yeah, this is super fun. I really enjoyed this.
Oh, thank you. You've been listening to The Sleep As A Skill Podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.
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