Dr. Dan Pardi is the Chief Health Officer at Qualia Life Sciences, where he leads education initiatives focused on advancing healthspan and optimizing peak performance. Qualia Life Sciences develops products rooted in complex systems science, a framework that recognizes the body’s natural ability to self-regulate and heal. Their growing product line includes support for brain health, cellular health, NAD+ levels, and most recently, Stem Cells. Dr. Pardi holds a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience from Leiden University and Stanford. His work is dedicated to translating cutting-edge scientific research into practical tools and programs that help people live longer, healthier, and higher-performing lives.
Dr. Dan Pardi is the Chief Health Officer at Qualia Life Sciences, where he leads education initiatives focused on advancing healthspan and optimizing peak performance. Qualia Life Sciences develops products rooted in complex systems science, a framework that recognizes the body’s natural ability to self-regulate and heal. Their growing product line includes support for brain health, cellular health, NAD+ levels, and most recently, Stem Cells.
Dr. Pardi holds a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience from Leiden University and Stanford. His work is dedicated to translating cutting-edge scientific research into practical tools and programs that help people live longer, healthier, and higher-performing lives.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 What is sunlight anchoring, and how does morning light reset your clock?
😴 How much daylight do you really need to perform and sleep well?
😴 What’s the most effective way to manage jet lag in a global schedule?
😴 Can sleep be developed as a measurable performance skill?
😴 Which pillar of health, sleep, diet, or movement, needs attention first?
😴 What do sleep medications really change in your brain’s architecture?
😴 What lessons can Stanford’s sleep pioneers teach us about progress and humility?
😴 How did insights from genomics lead to breakthroughs in sleep science?
😴 What makes the Loop Model a powerful framework for lasting behavior change?
😴 Does meal timing have a measurable impact on sleep and recovery?
😴 How can executives manage late dinners without compromising sleep?
😴 How are movement, gut health, and sleep interlinked for better performance?
😴 Check out QUALIA LIFE, http://www.qualialife.com/sleepisaskill Enjoy 15% OFF
Use code: SLEEPISASKILL
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The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome back to The Sleep As a Skill Podcast. This is part one of my conversation with Dr. Dan Pardi, and trust me, you're gonna wanna lean in for this one. If you've ever asked yourself, why does one sleep hack seem to work one week and fail the next? This episode is for you, Dr. Parti, who is the cheap health officer at Quality of Life Sciences and a pioneer in bringing, cutting edge science into everyday life.
He helps us unpack what's really driving your nights and your days. In this first half, we dig into the hidden levers that most people overlook. The power of light timing, the concept of sunlight anchoring, why sleep pressure is more than just feeling tired, and even how your mitochondria may be calling the shots behind the scenes.
And here's the thing, you'll start to see why sleep isn't something you simply treat, but a skill you train. By the end of part one, you already have a new lens on what it takes to sink your body, sharpen your rhythms, and reclaim rest. Then in part two, we'll go even deeper into aging cellular health, NAD plus and next level recovery.
So we're gonna jump right into the podcast, but first, a few words from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep. And one of the first questions people ask me about sleep is what supplement they can take. One supplement I've consistently taken for ages is magnesium, specifically by optimizers Magnesium breakthrough.
It's an all natural supplement that helps reduce fatigue, improve sleep quality, and promote peaceful rest. It also strengthens muscles and improves heart and brain function. Most magnesium supplements aren't full spectrum, but magnesium breakthrough contains an optimal ratio of all seven essential types of magnesium.
Now imagine having the strength and energy to get outta bed every morning, face the day boldly, and maintain that energy throughout the day and into the night. If you wanna give it a try, go to buy optimizers.com/sleep as a skill and use the code, sleep as a skill to get gifts with your purchase. And this is a limited time offer, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. This is a very exciting day over here for me, for Dan. It's probably any old day, but for me, I'm really excited. So Dr. Dan Paree has been such a pioneer in the world of sleep in many regards, and yet he is gonna delight us with his presence on many different topics that we're gonna go into the world of sleep and some that I'm excited to see from some of the things that he's working on and so much more.
Oh, and then I should also tell a quick story where for many years I have been saying that Dan has been, in my mind, has coined this term sunlight anchoring. So we'll get into what that is and he'll speak to all that and so much more. So anyway, that was a long intro. Dan. Thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Mollie, thank you so much for having me. Uh, I'd like to start by saying thank you Oh, for being a really positive force and helping people sleep better. Ugh, you are needed. And you're making great contributions. And so when I first became aware of you, I was just my, I felt so good about knowing that like there are people that are really talented that are getting the word out.
And so thank you for what you do.
Well, thank you for saying that, Dan. And as for context for if anyone is new here, my backstory is one where I felt like I was at my rock bottom in my life when I went through this period of insomnia that completely changed the course of my life about over a decade ago.
And it was one of the most defining periods of my life. And on the bright side ended up giving such a huge gift to my life. And I'm really committed to getting that message out that even when we're struggling with our sleep, and even if you're doing fine with your sleep and you just want sleep tips, we got those too.
But if you're really struggling too, that. There's so much available. It can truly be a gift when this is the case, because often it's the body saying it needs something or something's not working as well as it could. Certainly the case for me, and I also feel like I dodged a bullet because when I went to the doctors multiple times, I was given tons of sleeping pills.
Unfortunately I was traveling internationally, and so the different places I would go would be like Benzos Z drugs. Mm-hmm. And I feel like I could have easily just found myself down that path and thankfully was able to find some course correcting with a circuitous route and eventually then be able to get off of those.
But I'm so grateful for people like yourself that are doing the hard work to get this information out that can make that difference. So thank you for that. And you, so how did you find yourself in this area of study?
Gosh, so very serendipitously.
Yeah.
I was working for a genomic company that was aiming to mine the human genome.
Yeah. So we had what are called clustering and, and alignment tools that were trying to sequence the human genome for the first time. So we were in competition with Craig Vanner, Solera and NCBI, which is the, um, the national effort to try to sequence the human genome. Really interesting work. So we were working with pharmaceutical companies to say, we can actually annotate the genome that will then help you in your drug development process by finding more information about SNPs or single nucleotide polymorphisms.
These little differences between us that might lead to one group of people responding better to a drug, one group of people not responding at all to not looking quite different from the average. So, long story short. There were 33 companies in that space doing different things. We were one of the top three.
Mm. All of them went out of business because, but all the talent was then brought up into the pharmaceutical companies themselves. Mm. Really, when we have a new innovation, sometimes the innovation is ahead of the market.
Sure. Right.
And so we would walk in and say, Hey, we've got this awesome tool that's gonna help you with your process.
And they're like, well, we don't have a budget for that.
Yeah. We
haven't even thought, we haven't really thought about this before. Sure. So it was an interest, it was a really interesting time through that job. Um, I was connected with a very small company out of Minnesota called Orphan Medical.
Mm.
They had a drug, GHB or Sodium Oxybate, which was being looked at for narcolepsy.
Mm.
I knew nothing about sleep. I knew nothing about that.
Wow. Drug.
I knew nothing about narcolepsy. But what I loved about it is that as soon as I started to learn, I. Developed a very, very quickly, I developed an insatiable appetite for all three.
Yes.
And I started in sales. Mm. And I worked very differently than how most people did.
I would probably go visit one or two people a day instead of like 5, 6, 7, 8, to try to be like a pop-up ad. Mm. And the rest of the time I was in a coffee shop reading scientific papers, and Sure. I probably read a thousand papers over like a two year period. I couldn't get enough. And, um, I could feel that each time I was reading a paper, I was building this broader understanding of this intersection, right.
Between the, the med, the, the disease, sometimes disease is a really. Great way to understand a condition like sleep. Yes. Like when, when the, when the circuits in the brain are dysfunctional, then how does that help us understand how things should work? Sure. So then I transitioned, the company was purchased by, uh, a company called Jazz Pharmaceuticals in Palo Alto.
Oh, sure. And then I joined them as their first member of the medical affairs team. Mm-hmm. So medical affairs does post-marketing support on products after a drug gets approved by the FDA, then they do things like education. They do this, this department you will, we, we ran educational grants to, uh, uh, research grants.
Even So at one point I was helping to support almost 30 different clinical trials that were outside of narcolepsy. Wow. Which probably won't come as a surprise because lots of different conditions have sleep Yes. As either a symptom or a cause or both.
Sure. Yes. Right.
So people, we the, that, that drug has very unique effects on your sleep architecture.
Where most of the drugs that you had mentioned previously, benzodiazepines mm-hmm. The DZ drugs.
Yeah.
They will help you fall asleep modestly faster.
Yeah.
But they suppress slow wave sleep and a lot of good things happen during slow
wave
sleep.
Yes. Where
with GHB sodium ate, um, you have. Very robust increases in slow wave sleep.
Mm.
So, yeah. So I found myself in this really interesting role in a, a burgeoning field. When I started in sleep, there were still entire countries that didn't even have a sleep clinic.
Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
So I would go down to the Stanford Grand Rounds every Friday, and in that room were a handful of luminaries, some of the best thinkers in the entire space of sleep.
And we would have some speaker come in from all over the world and give a talk about their research. And then I would hear the dialogue between Christian Gau, Jed Black, uh, Jamie Zeer, Emmanuel Mino. Yeah. And these experts. And I was just mesmerized by the, what great science was happening. And how new it was.
There's, yeah. When something is new and you know you've tapped into something valuable. Yes. There's an energy.
Totally. Have you read the book Mapping the Darkness by any chance? No. Oh my God, it's so fantastic. It just came out fairly recently and it's mapping the darkness of this entire industry, the sleep industry.
With a really fantastic journalist and she points to really follows Stanford, quite notably from as ground zero of sleep, if you will. Yeah. And some of the key thought leaders throughout that period, but going back pre-industrial revolution and beyond, and just how new it is. Mm-hmm. So, okay. So you feel like you're in the room or it happens?
Yeah. Yeah.
I mean, to
use a Hamilton references Yeah. Completely.
I found myself in this epicenter
Mm.
Of this burgeoning field of sleep.
Sure.
So when I first went to the Associated Professional Sleep Society meeting, the sleep, big sleep meeting, yeah. Yeah. Every year it was small, you know, you knew everybody.
Yeah. And then it doubled every year. Wow. And so it was a very exciting place to be. I loved how I was able to contribute mm-hmm. Through the pharmaceutical company to support research, to also do sleep education. Uh, but eventually I had my own questions that I wanted to address. Sure. So I left there and I started my PhD with the, um.
Gentle nudging of Jed Black, who is the second director of the Stanford Sleep Clinic.
Great. Yeah,
and to this day, one of the most lovely, wonderful people I've ever met.
Aw,
yeah. Like the, the anecdote that I tell about him, which I think says so much, is that. He had such deep knowledge about the space. Mm.
But he would say, I don't know, to questions more than anyone else. Ugh.
It's always the wisest one in the room. Yeah, that does. Yeah. That's great. You
have this great saying is like, the answer to that question is currently beyond my level of understanding. And,
and it's like you are the understanding, like you're the cap.
Yeah. Right now. Wow, that's great. And he was just so honest
with what was known and what wasn't known. And, but if it was known, he would tell you exactly how we got here.
Wow.
And I just respected that so much.
That's so great. And then the awareness of the how to reach that conclusion versus just like, well, I don't know.
That's what we've come to, to be able to reroute, go backwards. That's incredible. Okay. So you found yourself in this, in this space. Yes. And then how did that blossom from there? From that point?
Yes. So it was 2008 and I was invited by our u, our European distribution partner, ucb, to join a advisory board with like 12 of the top neurologists by Prestige in Europe, in an advisory board in Moscow.
Oh wow. Yeah. Okay.
So I went to give a com. Good goodbye, son.
Yeah, so cool.
I, I am not sure I would go there now, but I'm really glad that I was able to see the country.
Amazing. Yeah, it was so funny. I was just speaking with someone of discussing how Moscow was just like a fascinating city in the architecture and what have you.
I've yet to see that, but that's amazing. Yes. We
would eat, you know, we had Georgian meals and Siberian food and we were, and it was freezing and Yes, the whole, it was such a memorable trip.
Oh, I bet. Yeah.
But on that trip, I met a man here, John Lambs out of the Netherlands, who is one of the best diagnosticians for narcolepsy.
So really being able to, uh, figure out does this person have narcolepsy? What kind do they have? And so we got a lot of time together and turns out that. He, I had read all of his work, so I had good questions for him. Just that's natural out natural curiosity's.
Wow. That's great.
And it turns out that he was a reviewer on sub several papers that I had now published.
And so he knew my work well. Oh
my gosh. Yeah.
And match made in heaven. Yeah, totally. Yeah. So we became friends and he invited me to do a PhD with him in the Netherlands. And um, we had worked it out so that all of my research funding came from Stanford and I was able to work through Jamie Zeer in his lab, who's amazing.
He
was our first episode. Okay. Uh, yeah. 'cause it was World Sleep Day. So we looked at the World Sleep Society and so I had an in interview there and then, so technically it's second, but the first like real interview Yeah. Of that matter. He's amazing. Yeah. Jamie's the best. Yeah. Yeah.
He's so smart and he's so humble.
Um, but we would like, maybe one of the most fun things in my career was we would go down and we would debate for like. 3, 2, 3 hours.
What? Really? And it was so
fun. And That's amazing spirited. Like just so intellectual
adjusting. Yeah. Yes, exactly.
And it was all in the spirit of like pushing the level of our knowledge and understanding,
and
it was a great way to learn.
Oh, I bet. Yeah. Yeah. Wow.
Yeah. So we did some work together and then I'd go back to the Netherlands for like, uh, you know, two to three weeks, once a year. But even when I started that I knew I didn't want to become a sleep researcher. Okay. An experience I had before all of this was doing prostate cancer research with the Preventative Medicine Research Institute in Sausalito through Dean
Ornish.
Okay. Wow. And
yeah, so he had this institute that was affiliated with UCSF, and what he was doing was looking at a comprehensive lifestyle program to affect disease.
Mm.
So he looked at the occlusion of coronary arteries. He was now taking that protocol, which was successful Sure. Working in prostate cancer.
And I, I love this idea, like, how do we tie together all the factors that matter to help people be healthier and in some cases, maybe even change the trajectory of disease Yeah. That you already have.
Yeah. Not
just avoid it. That's where was really pulling me. So the PhD helped me answer some specific questions that I had to sharpen my skills with writing and research.
But even when I started, uh. I was, I said, okay, if I'm going to be getting into, if I'm gonna be trying to help people change their behavior, I need to understand it well. So for the first six months of my PhD with the full support of my whole team that was there supporting me, you know, Jamie and Garrett, John and Jed, and another man named Pel, who was the head of diabetes and the Netherlands, they were just so wonderful.
Like it was all about my curiosity and they just helped me along the way.
Oh, how fascinating. So you got to go down the rabbit hole. Yeah. And with that encouragement. Yeah. Okay, great. Yeah, they were
great. It wasn't like, you know, have to do this work and yeah, it was like, what do you wanna do? How do we help you get there?
Hmm. So I just have had really wonderful people in my life and attribute. All anything to them.
Yeah.
But yeah, so what I did is I dissected several well-known behavior models. Mm-hmm. To try to think about, okay, what are the individual pieces? Can we see the fundamental attributes of how behavior has changed across these different platforms?
Mm-hmm. These different ideas. 'cause the behavior model can do multiple things. It can describe why behavior changes. It can predict when it's going to change. Sure. Or it can even serve as a model that you can use to change behavior. So I ended up creating my own behavior model called The Loop Model to sustain health behaviors.
Hmm. And that became the basis of Human os, which is the company that I started and worked on creating in parallel with doing my PhD. And the whole idea there was like a digital health trainer. And so I started a podcast in 2014 and really I started that podcast because I felt at the time what was missing was a conversation directly with the person doing the work.
Yes.
A lot of the people that were doing good, good work, they were interpreting, you know, across many studies. Mm-hmm. And I wanted to go to the, you know, directly to the person who. And asked them questions
leading that. Yes. Why did
you do this? Like, what'd you find? So that's where it started. And, um, because of my relationships in sleep, a, a good amount of them were, were in sleep.
And so for a little while, the, the podcast was the official, uh, podcast of the Sleep Research Society Yeah. And the Canadian Sleep Society. But I also started getting into aging at that time. And the field of geoscience was undergoing a very cool transformation because it wasn't that long ago that aging science was not considered credible.
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. Yeah. So you started bringing some of that legitimacy to this conversation by going in deeper and looking at Yeah. Hard hitting research.
It's hard to predict exactly what is gonna pull your attention. Mm-hmm. Things emerge in the world and you can, you have, you feel the energy of it and you're like, oh, there's something happening here.
And sometimes not within your control. Mm. You just say, I cannot help but. Spend my time here.
Yes. Right. Yes. That's great. I love that you're following your passions all throughout this too. Yeah. Yeah. And then merging them together from the sounds of it, and or in certain ways. Yeah, yeah,
yeah. Yeah. So here I am now where I'm almost done with my PhD and I've developed this platform to try to be a sort of a, a coach, a digital coach for a holistic health plan, you know, and, and I have specific ideas of what we need.
Um, and part of the book that I am writing is going to try to explore what health is.
Oh, I cannot wait. Yay.
Yeah. So I have. Um, I think there are many really interesting ideas that are locked behind jargon complicated. Mm-hmm. They're, they're too complicated Yes. In the way that they're delivered academically.
Sure.
But they're consequential to all of us and how we think about health.
Mm-hmm.
And so my goal is to write, it's about 25 chapters, each of 'em, almost like 25 essays. Mm. That are short.
Yeah.
That take one really important idea and then help you connect with it. And so Great. That, yeah. That's sort of where this is leading to in a way.
Um, and which is actually one milestone along the journey.
Yeah. So, totally. Wow. Okay. So much there. And just to underscore to your point around the podcast and human os. And for myself, I look forward to over these many years reading your newsletters, being a part of HumanOS and some of your fantastic courses, and not just making statements or what have you, but backing it up with just really the knowledge base around how to help us decode and understand what's important, research, what's maybe not so important.
And yeah, go to that source material. So I highly recommend checking out all these resources, and of course we'll have all this in the show notes and what have you, but just so that it makes it accessible and right away, practical into your life, beyond just, here's another study that no one's gonna be able to understand how to bring into their life.
So I guess maybe if you have another direction, let me know, but. Potentially that might be a nice place for us to begin is kind of like, how do we start to take this out of the academic halls and bring this into practicality, which I feel like you've been doing such great work in making available for people.
So when we think about sleep Yeah. And this skill set, I like to make this argument that sleep is a skill in our modern society just because we've maybe drifted so far away from some of the things that would just naturally help it to happen and work without having to think about it. And so when you think about sleep, and this is a huge topic, but how do you start to maybe break that down?
I know you talked about these 25 essays. Is there kind of that framework to introduce for someone that might be really struggling and or looking to optimize, where's the kinda that best starting point for people?
You, you are spot on the, the title of your business, sleep as a skill, health as a Skill.
Absolutely right. Yeah.
So you, it's such a good message. Mm. And you also nailed it in that the more technology pushes us to live in a way askew from the origin conditions Yes. That we evolved in.
Yeah.
Then, you know, a few people want to necessarily go back to that life.
Yeah.
But we have to spend more conscious effort.
We have to have a wellness, uh, uh, program, you know Sure. A wellness, uh, pattern that we, and, and, um, partake in
mm-hmm.
And craft and update.
Mm-hmm.
So wellness is willfully, it's all the efforts that we make to try to bolster our health.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. The intentional ones. That is what wellness is.
Sure.
So, um, with sleep with, there's so many different things now that can get in the way of getting a really good night's sleep with knowledge, with practice with.
Testing, you can sleep much better than what we'll call the default condition, right?
Absolutely. Yeah. The
default fault condition, which is driven by all the forces today, right? Mm-hmm. They might be different for a year from now.
Yeah. Yeah.
That are interfering, and so the bigger picture here and sleep slots into this nicely is that.
Our healthcare system is incomplete.
Mm.
Okay. Our healthcare system has a medical system that treats sickness, and we absolutely need that.
Mm-hmm. But
it, we've been viewing it as though it is a complete system, and all of us has felt that's not real. That's not true.
Yeah.
Right. There's more, there's more than that.
There's more than just getting a drug. There's more than just getting a referral. So the, the major tools of the healthcare system are doing another diagnosis. So coming in Yes. Getting evaluated. Maybe you are also being evaluated to get an, an additional test.
Yes.
You are getting evaluated to be referred to a specialist by your, let's say, your pcp.
Sure. Right. Your primary care doctor, the first person, the first point of contact, or you are being evaluated. Are you appropriate or not for a medication or a combination of medications?
Sure.
That is what our medical system has essentially crystallized into. We can't do much more than that with a 12 minute meeting.
Mm-hmm.
Right. We can't do much more than that. Now the tip out the door from wellness minded practitioners eat right exercise, that doesn't change behavior.
Mm-hmm.
We need an entirely different approach to society and by our healthcare system that turns health and wellness into a, you know, you cannot be treated to be healthy.
You have to undergo a form of training
that embeds
knowledge that exists in the world that is constantly updating.
Yes.
That is appropriate to you, that helps you live life with skill and knowledge so that you navigate your 24 hour period day by day in a way that is gentler, kinder, yes. More supportive to your physiology?
Yes. Okay. So well said. And of this kind of human os, this operating system that we're building for, or kind of reconstructing for the individual, if someone is saying. Okay, well I did those steps and I went to a doctor and they gave me a sleep study and maybe they gave me a medication or what have you.
I'm still struggling. What do you see as some of the things that have been missed in that current approach?
Yeah, so what's comes to mind right away is early on when I was doing what I was doing, a few very smart people said, just become the sleep person.
Yeah.
And I said, okay, that's actually quite attractive.
Yes, you can carve out a, a piece of this, but because of my work with Dr. Ornish mm-hmm. And think, and having that early in my life Yes. Realizing the multiplicative nature of health. Mm-hmm. There's so many different things that are the influence to, and they're all reinforcing, right? Mm-hmm. So for example.
Exercise will support a, a good movement pattern in your day by day experience. Yes. Will support good sleep, totally good diet will support good gut health, which will report support. Good sleep.
I just saw your recent newsletter on this gut health piece. Yes. Okay. One of your many. I know so many points, but Okay, great.
Yes, yes.
So we start to see that the holistic health can sound like a really cheap term.
Yeah. Yeah.
But it's true. And that doesn't mean that we can't focus in on a particular area. And what ends up happening for people is that when there is some sort of issue, then there is usually interest around that issue.
And that allows us to help them take, uh, part in good behaviors that are supportive Sure. Of where the issue lies. So I have, you know, people, uh, in the past would often ask me questions like, all right, so diet, exercise, sleep, they're all important. How do you rank them? Mm.
And
I say, well, that's like thinking about which leg of a chair is most important.
Yes.
Right.
Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I often say that one of the reasons I feel like I, in my estimation, like hit the jackpot on the topic of sleep is because so many people are, you done talking about this now? And I'm like, never. Because to your point, I think of it as this Trojan horse effect in order to transform it.
And people come in with the problems of sleep, I did myself, but in order to transform it, it's like the spokes on the wheel are just immense. There's so many areas, yes, that will impact your results and bidirectionally and vice versa. So it's just such a fascinating piece. And then to your point, it's, there's so many aspects of this one could never get bored because Oh yeah.
It's just so many pathways to go down.
Oh yeah. I love that saying like the more you learn, the more you realize you don't know. Oh my gosh.
Yeah. And
if I were to have. Focused in on sleep as a career in, let's say, doing research, I would be working in undoubtedly, a very narrow, narrow space. Totally. Totally.
So you could go deep, deep, deep.
Yes.
And that, um, it's funny because I like that.
Mm. Um, in
fact, when I was at Jazz Pharmaceuticals, what a, uh, their CEO recently retired. Mm-hmm. And he was an amazing, he is an amazing man. Mm. An amazing CEO.
Wow.
And I remember going to him and speaking because when I first started in medical affairs, I was the topic matter expert for GHB.
And so they would bring me in on that. And I loved being like, all right, I've got all this information. Yes. And I, and I can help, right? Yeah, totally. I can, I can help out this machine, this big machine. Everybody's contributing in their way. And I, I've got a really defined role. And as I moved to then kind of setting up the department, the nature of the, my job is that I had to have more breadth.
I was contributing. Mm-hmm. Um, a little bit to a lot of areas. And I went to Bruce. And I spoke with him about that, and he said, yeah, isn't that interesting? He's like, when you're going really deep and that's what you have to do, you miss the breath.
Yes. And then when
you're doing the breath, you miss the depth.
Ugh. So true. He's so true. And he's like, mm-hmm.
You know, just be happy where you are. Mm-hmm. He's like, it'll naturally oscillate out into a, a new phase.
Mm-hmm. And
it's hard, you know, and he's even said hard to predict it, so just know it's coming. Yeah. And, and be happy where you are. Oh. It's like, okay.
That's really good. I love
that. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Fantastic. Okay. So to bring that from, for that person that is, yeah. Struggling right now. Yeah. What are some of those key things that you see that are just missing from the conversation for the average person that maybe they're just have no clue that could be impacting their sleep?
I know you also touched on that movement piece being so crucial than some of these other, how I think of you too is also in your research around light. Of course. Yeah. And then so much more. So excited to hear what else you see.
Yeah. So if we go back to that chair analogy. Yes,
please. Thank you. Yeah.
Yeah.
The, you can easily see that all the, the legs of the chair matter. Mm-hmm. But for anyone individual, if their sleep leg, yeah. If you will, yes. Is loose and wobbly, uhhuh, then that's the one to address first.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah. So that's a good way to think of it, that we want to solve the proximal issue.
Mm-hmm.
Before sometimes, and that can serve as a catalyst for us to then start taking. Uh, better care of all the different things that matter, all the determinants of health.
Yes.
Now it can seem overwhelming. You'll read every day some new idea about another thing that matters. Yes. And that it can, and that, and, and you could just apply that to sleep.
Mm-hmm.
There are almost an infinite amount of different ideas that can ha that, where something could be going wrong and you, you wanna solve that because it is the cause of why you are having a hard time sleeping.
Mm-hmm.
That is frustrating. Yes. That is frustrating. So what I like is to think of things from a high level.
Mm-hmm. Things that have a pleiotropic effect. The pleotropic effect is one thing that is going to have a cascading impact
mm-hmm. On
all sorts of aspects of your physiology. Sure. So light is a really great example of that.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
So our, uh, there are circadian uh, behaviors, Cadian rhythms are these repeatable patterns that are very important to our health and because.
Well, you don't want your, your body does not want to be doing the same activity all the time. For example, you do not want to be like a cell, does not want to be engaging in a buildup process at the exact same time that is, uh, doing a breakdown process. Yes. So we separate these spatially, right? Mm-hmm.
They, they're not, we don't do 'em at the same time. Yes. We have moments where we do them, and then we have moments where we're doing the opposite. Mm-hmm. So much of our physiology is related to that, and as a result, light is, we are of course, diurnal animals that we're up during the day. Yeah. There is nocturnal animals too, like raccoons.
There's corpuscular animals, which are mostly active during dawn and dusk. Mm-hmm. So think like of a fox or a coyote. Right. And so there are all sorts of patterns that nature can manifest. Mm. In terms of when that particular organism is most active in order for it to best procure resources in its environment.
Mm. We
are diurnal.
Yes.
And so that means that a lot of the processes of rebuilding. Um, purging, uh, sort of maintaining redox balance, which is helping to lower oxidative stress that is mm-hmm. Happening as a result of wake time activity.
Yeah. Right.
So when we're up, we're, we're thinking we're active and we evolved in a planet where there was a sun above us.
Mm-hmm. And our brain, the master clock that is controlling the timing of our circadian rhythms, the matic nucleus is very sensitive to light. It is helping to control the timing of our circadian rhythms. And that's why, um, circadian rhythms and sleep, it's like one conversation, you can parse them, but because sleep itself is a circadian behavior, it happens at a particular time then.
Getting that idea, getting on top of that idea as an individual and understanding the importance of light is really key. And yes, because we live in this weird environment, there's a lot of things that we can do. Yeah. Products, behaviors. Yeah. I mean it sometimes it seems ridiculous, like all the things that we need to buy in order to be healthy.
It's ridiculous.
Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm.
Yeah, but
we don't live outside.
Right. 'cause it's mimicking, it's trying to mimic what's happening outside, inside. And it can take something. Yeah, exactly. Got it. I
forget the name of the brand, but I have a very cool light device. It's like a visor that shines light down.
Oh
yes, I know. How do you pronounce it? It's like OYO or a YO. There's a few of, uh, something along those lines. They're gonna be very mad at me when I did not get that name right. Um, uh, we can put it in the show notes. I actually used that when I went to Yeah. Singapore on like a 17 or 18 hour flight and it was perfect.
Quite handy. Yes, yes, yes. Okay. So you utilize things like that.
Yeah.
Yeah. Which
sounds, you know, you look like a weirdo sometimes. Yeah. And actually that is something that I speak to that in order to be as healthy as we need to be, yeah. We need to be a little weird, which means we have to act a little differently than what.
Is considered normal.
Yeah.
Which is actually not normal.
Yeah.
For our physiology.
I'm so glad you said that. Yes. Because I'll talk about, I don't know if you like or use the time shifter app when traveling. Yeah, yeah. Nicely done, right? Yeah, totally. So I'll often try to explain it that I think my experience of it is that you should visibly look different at different parts of this time shift or itinerary, if you will, or lineup.
And so you should actually look the part when it's supposed to be night. And because we're in this odd environment, flying in a metal can or whatever in the air. And so having, you know, the blue blockers, maybe hats. All these different ways to kind of try to block out the light. Not like too lunacy style, but to a certain extent.
But then when it's daytime looking the exact opposite. And maybe be annoying everyone around you. 'cause now you are going after the light in the space or maybe with, you know, the visors or what have you. Totally. Okay. So you should look a little weird or act a little weird. Yeah. But it's really kind of pairing us with these natural cues.
Feel confident to look a little strange.
Yes.
You know? And yes, what we're really trying to do is emulate a natural lighting environment.
Mm-hmm.
And I'll say, this is, so part of what we do at HumanOS is we have how to guides. Yes. So, yes. I love
your guides. Those are great. Great. Yeah. Yeah. Thank you. So we'll
do like, so our, we have courses, we have how to guides and we have.
Different things that actually, you know, like help you be healthy today. So the courses are meant to be like 30 to 60 minutes. Mm-hmm. And give you a framework understanding of a subject. You're like, okay, I get the big idea.
Mm-hmm. The
how to guides go into all the details of how you would do it then.
Sure. Yeah.
The reason I'm mentioning this is because our, our how to guide on jet lag is so complicated.
Yes, yes. I love your how-to guide on jet lag. It's so elaborate and great. No, but in a fantastic way. I highly recommend thank checking these out. Yeah.
So I feel bad even handing it to people because you have a lots of really important questions to ask.
Yes. Which direction are you going?
Yeah.
How long are you going? Mm-hmm. Are you going, are you going long enough where you're act and are you going enough time across enough time zones? Yeah. Where you're going to want to try to adjust to the new schedule as quickly as possible. Yeah. Do you need to be, let's say at your very best the moment you land, 'cause you're giving a presentation at 8:00 AM Yes.
In, in London. Or is your
peak time way later. Yeah, exactly. Right. So
maybe you wanna start adjusting ahead of time before you leave. Yeah. Are you gonna only gonna go for three days? So maybe instead of trying to adjust, you don't try to adjust, you stay on your biological time. What, what, what you're adjusted to now and you just deal with the consequences.
Yes.
It is complicated.
We had Dr. Michael Braner on the podcast. Okay. And he was speaking to the sometimes annoying response. He thinks that it's, um, people get annoyed when he'll say, it depends. Yeah. It, it depends. Totally. You know, 'cause and then more to the point of the more, you know. The more it does depend, because it would be nice if we could all say, oh, well for jet lag you just do these five things and you're fine.
But it turns out that it really is dependent on so many factors. So, yeah. Yeah.
And that one happens to be one that is a little bit more complicated, but you can also just follow a series of questions. Sure. Which direction are you going? Yeah. How long are you gonna be there? Yes. Do you wanna change? So then the guidance that you would give should be clear.
Mm-hmm.
Should be, you know, something that someone could, can't follow. You just have to go down that algorithm, if you will. Yeah. And answer some questions first.
Yeah.
But, um, anyway, going back to the bigger subject of light. Mm-hmm. It does have a really important effect, not only on our, on our alertness.
Yeah. So it helps to clear out, uh, sleep inducing molecules. Let's say first thing in the morning, so getting bright light. Mm-hmm. And also you want to have light, like where is the sun? It's above our head. Yes. So the receptors, these intrinsically, uh, photo sensitive receptors in our retina, they're in the bottom of the retina.
Mm-hmm. Which makes great sense because they are sensitive too. When the sun is out and the sun is above us.
Yes, yes. Right.
So the little technology visor, if you will, that I wear that shines blue light down Yes. Is doing the exact thing it should do. Mm-hmm. It is helping us, is helping those receptors in the brain that understand that it is daytime have and respond to blue light from above.
And so that's a brilliant piece of technology. Yeah. You just look a little weird when you're wearing it. Yes,
exactly. Yes. But I,
I mostly wear it like at home, kinda. Yeah. Yeah. And yeah, so that's another thing that I do just on the light idea, is I have a photo meter so you can detect the photo intensity.
Yes. Yeah. So you can, I, this changed my office. I was in my office and my light intensity was not what it should be. It was under what it should be to get adequate light indoors. Mm-hmm.
Yeah.
Um, and so that was really good to know. I also then adjusted, you can buy one of these for, you know, less than $50 online, so at night.
Then I also looked at the light intensity in my room and at night. Of course. So the ease this, it's very complicated, but all you mm-hmm. Think about this. What you're trying to do is emulate what's happening outside at any given time.
Yes, absolutely.
Mm-hmm. So, after the sun goes down, you want, and you might have, you might have been exposed to candlelight.
Mm-hmm. You want softer light, more amber toned. Your body can still make sleep inducing. Uh, hormones like melatonin, um, under very low light conditions. As long as it's not blue light.
Yes.
Right. So blue light for a while was like, oh, blue light's bad. No. Blue light is just daytime. Yes,
yes, yes. It's at night.
Exactly. Yeah. It's the timing. There's always nuance. Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And the brightness of it. So, and the proximic of it and Yeah. There's so much there. Yeah. Uh, Jamie Dieter can go to town too Yes. In alignment with all of your work. Yeah, absolutely. And maybe this would be a good time to point to that sunlight anchoring piece.
The thing I'm always like, well, Dr. Dan Hard has coined, uh, yes.
Alright, jll, explain it.
Yeah, please. Yeah. Okay.
So, early research into circadian biology showed that if you put somebody in constant darkness, a couple things happen to their daily rhythm. Mm. It starts to shift. So it's like it gets a little bit later every day.
Yes. So you're, to put it into terms that we can understand real easily, it's like you're 8:00 AM today. Happens at 9:00 AM tomorrow and then 10:00 AM two days from now. Yes, it's starting to move. Mm-hmm. So you would be waking up later and going to bed later, but there's also an elongation of your 24 hour cycle?
Yes.
Okay. So there's two things that are happening. It's shifting and it's elongating. Mm. That's called your tau. Yeah. That's the length of your 24 hour cycle. Circadian means around 24 hours. Yeah. And that's because, um. Uh, left without that very important signal from light w it, it actually has its own pattern to it.
Mm. And so it's require, it needs these environmental inputs in order for it to be on time.
Yes. Okay. Yes.
So the sunlight anchor helps when you get that first thing in the morning. It helps your rhythm not shift day to day.
Mm-hmm. It
helps keep it in place. In fact, artificial light at night, TVs, screens, you know, whether it's an iPad, phone, your Kindle, all of that, the bathroom mic, the refrigerator light, all of that light is less potent at causing your rhythms to shift.
Mm. Because that's one thing that it does. Right? Sure. Sure. If I think if your brain thinks that it's daytime, it's gonna try to adjust.
Mm-hmm.
And if you get really good light in the morning, you're much less likely for that, that artificial light to sh to shift you.
Yes. Do you agree with Andrew Huberman verbiage on getting that.
Bright light by day, and then also the sunset lighting helps inoculate you from the effects of blue light in the evening quite as much. Do you, or not sure your take on that.
Yeah, I think that's a good way to put it.
Okay. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I hadn't heard
him say that, but I think that's a good way to put it.
That, um, imagine that you, oh, in fact, a lot of the research that has studied this, that shows mm-hmm. That artificial light at night does cause your rhythm to shift. Sure. Like, just so we can connect to this intuitively. Yeah. Think about if you we're in Austin right now, if we were to go to London, we, our, the timing of our physiology would still be on Austin time.
Mm-hmm. For a few days.
Yeah.
But because we're getting, we wanna be up during the day, we're getting new light signals. Everything would change. And eventually after like five, 10 days, we were gonna be fully synced to a new time zone. Artificial light can kind of do that, even if you don't get on a plane and travel nine, you know?
Yes. Nine, 10 hours. It's called social jet lag. And that can also cause your rhythms to shift. Now 50% of the United States claims unsatisfactory sleep. Mm.
And I
think it has a lot to do with our lighting environment. We spend, you know, 93% of our time indoors. Mm-hmm. And we are on screens all day, especially at night.
And so, yeah, this is a perfect illustration about how sleep is now a skill. Yes. Because we can make sure we get a little bit of sunlight. Mm-hmm. I say 10 minutes before 10:00 AM and at least 30 minutes a day outside.
Yeah, absolutely. We had Dr. Sachin Pan on the podcast, and he was speaking to some of his research and findings around the need for kind of a baseline minimum amount of time outside to be able to create sufficient melatonin at night.
Yes. And so he was pointing to similar conversations and even starting to point to an hour outside a day as anywhere from 30 minutes to an hour consistently for each person. And then of course, you can go into your nuance too. Well, it depends on where you are on the globe and what's the cloud coverage and what's your skin type and blah, blah, blah.
So it can certainly get the breadth and depth, uh, can be important here. But yeah, you're pointing to something so crucial because the simplicity of it all is like, okay, let's, can we get outside? More often than we are. But I know that in practicality, I mean, I work with a ton of high stakes poker players and they are doing the exact opposite of that, and basically rotating shift workers and in casinos design a purpose to confuse the circadian rhythm.
So when we see groups, anything like that, or just the rest of us who are spending all this time, as you pointed to 93% of the time indoors, which probably even more since when they did that study, it was like Yes. Years and years ago. That's right. Which was probably like, who knows now? Yeah. Right. I love that you're pointing to just, I believe that that's gonna be one of the big, kind of uhoh moments in the future when we look back and we're like, how did we not catch on to this with sooner?
But thankfully, you have people like yourself pointing to that research. It's so important.
So Sachin panda's right? About an hour. Yeah. You, you actually get more, you're not, the, the, the full benefit of daylight doesn't happen within 30 minutes. Sure. But the preto printable, 80% of the benefit happens. It's a, it's actually.
Um, really good news. Yeah. Uh, and I'll put it in a different context. Yeah, please. So we talk about 10,000 steps a day. Sure. That's really, really helpful. Good for our health.
Yeah. Right.
It's not like it only becomes healthy at the 10,000 step. Yes. In fact, e every step you take probably declines in its value.
Yeah. Interesting. Yes. Isn't
that interesting? Yeah. You're most sensitive. So if you go from 2000 steps a day to four, you actually are getting the biggest health benefit.
Yeah.
Than if you were to go from, let's say six to 8,000 steps a day. Mm-hmm. It's still very beneficial. You should have your targets.
Yes. But don't feel like if I don't hit this goal, then it's not worth it. In fact, every step you take up until then is going to be more valuable than the next one.
Yes. Light, you can say the
same thing.
Yeah, like an equalizing effect from day to day. So don't like knock yourself out if it's not perfect each day.
There's going to be benefits that just by starting to bring those behaviors in. And I know you're pointing to these behavioral change components of like what will, 'cause it's so nice to like sit and we talk about these things, but if no one's gonna do it, then Yeah. You know, I mean it was part of the reason that I moved to Austin was for the light environment.
Yes. For the facility to be outside more after, especially coming from New York and Maine and these like long winters and what have you. And just, and of course you can get well at any latitude, but Sure. What that looks like is very different. Yeah. Up north than certain areas. So light environment, huge.
Huge. Yeah. Okay.
And I'll say this, keep this in mind. Yeah. Don't. Not get five minutes. Yeah. Because you can't get an hour.
Yes. Beautiful. Yeah. Yeah. So important. Yeah. And I absolutely hear that too. 'cause it's like, okay, I got kids, I got Yeah. One job, two jobs. Yeah. I got a lot to do. Yeah. And how do, now I gotta juggle this and then have guilt if I don't hit these numbers.
Yeah. That such, I would assume So as far as uncertain research impacts, even with a few minutes Right. With that anchoring. Yeah. I would imagine. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
So a wellness journey is filled with imperfection.
Yes.
And that it's, it's still worthwhile doing it.
Yes.
And now there's a terms like orthorexia.
Mm-hmm. Which is an unhealthy obsession. Yes. With health. Yeah. Probably making you less healthy because of the stress it causes. Yes.
And ortho somnia. For ortho
somnia Yeah.
Of the obsession of sleep. Yep. I
didn't get this perfect amount and now I'm stressed out about it. Yes. Which means I'm gonna get less the next night.
Yeah.
That's actually one of the most vicious parts about insomnia is Yes. That it causes anxiety. 'cause you're like then extra worried the next night that you get sleep. Yes. Which then interferes with you getting more. Yes. So, anyway, this applies also to the ideas of health. The, I think one of the best things to do is try to enjoy your process as much as possible.
Yes. And give your be great, you know, give yourself grace when you don't have that perfect day. So good. And if you can't get outside for an hour for one of any number of reasons, watch your lighting environment even more carefully at night.
Yes. So good.
Make sure you wear your orange filtering. Uh, yes. The blue filtering orange glasses.
Yes.
Yes. At the
right time. Uh, dim all of your lights in your house. Yeah. Um, turn off lights that you're not using. Just be extra mindful and that's where you start to turn. I, that's where I think, um, like with sleep as a skill and health is a skill when you commit to the process of continually learning mm-hmm.
Then you develop wisdom over time.
Mm-hmm. We
don't want to have a huge amount of disembodied facts. Mm-hmm. What we want is the knowledge that we learn to inform, like an understanding. Mm.
So that
you can then use the information with a plum to make adjustments within your day here and there. Mm-hmm. With a certain degree of mindfulness, you always have to stay mindful of, okay, how am how am I plotting and planning my, the day ahead of me?
Yeah. Whatever remains of it. And how do I pay attention to what I've done and how can I react to that to make it a little better?
Yes.
And that's where I think knowledge comes into play. And so, for example, with our newsletter. Um, the idea that I have in mind for that is that you just monitor the stream.
Mm. You stay connected with ideas, many of which will flow past you engage you in the moment and you forget the information.
Yeah.
But just staying connected to health in general can trigger all sorts of thoughts and connections that then keep you like paying attention.
Yes. Keep trying. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Oh, a hundred percent.
It's so important how you put that too, because then it doesn't feel so overwhelming. 'cause then people can just opt out of this whole thing. Okay, this is too much. I can't possibly, and then resignation or upset or frustration, all these things can set in. So instead just that little improvement periodically over time.
Trusting that, that wisdom and the wisdom of the body to be able to write itself where possible with our own gentle nudging and guidance along the way. Beautiful. Okay. So I know there's, I'm already having moments of, oh my gosh, we, I wish I had so many hours with you. Okay. And I know also we wanted to touch on some of this kind of cellular aging piece.
And so before we get there, is there anything, yeah. I know this is huge, huge topics, but is there anything glaring that we missed? That we should address in terms of how you think about sleep uniquely for someone that might be struggling?
Yeah, so I think probably the most helpful piece of information is commit to learning more about it.
Yes. And part of that is understanding knowledge that has been generated through the scientific method and, and doctors. Yes. But part of it is understanding yourself better through trying different things. Some might work, some you're unsure if they work or not.
Yeah.
So more knowledge about the, the world and what we know more, more knowledge about yourself and keep.
Thinking about it. Mm-hmm.
Like
I try a lot of different things related to sleep because I want to have direct knowledge of them.
Mm-hmm. Yes.
Half of which give me a worse night's sleep than I would've had if didn't.
Yeah. That happens to me so often. Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent. Yes.
So when you look at this challenge in front of us, you have the rest of your life to benefit from real knowledge that you generate about what works for you.
Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Okay. So be. Gentle on yourself when you try something that doesn't work and keep at it and, and really think about it too. Mm-hmm. Like, okay, these things do help me.
Yeah.
Like I've been wearing earplugs and an eye mask for probably 30 years.
Okay. Yeah.
And that helps to diminish the noise in my environment, which means that I'm less likely to wake up to random noises.
Yes. I can still hear big, big noises.
Yeah.
Um, and then also it creates a very dark environment, um, for my brain. 'cause it's filtering out all sorts of light. So one little trick 'cause that's like philosophical and high
level. Yeah, sure.
You can also buy on Amazon these little light shields. So if you have devices in your room Yes.
That have a bright green light to show you that they're on
Yeah.
That can actually add a decent amount of light to your room. Yeah. So you can buy these little, um, dark. Plastic stickers.
Sure. Yeah.
And stick 'em on whatever is emitting light and what I use, one might block the light a little bit and sometimes an extra one is enough.
Yes. You can still see that it's on Yeah. But it's not filling the room at night with ar with artificial light.
Yes.
Now, you know, how much does that light matter? I think I found that it does matter to me.
Mm-hmm. It'll
wake me up.
Yeah. Yeah.
Um, how well, so your eyelids are translucent. Mm-hmm. So light can penetrate them.
Mm-hmm.
Um, we also wake up many times a night, but we just roll back over. So when every time you change position, we don't wanna eliminate all of those. Mm-hmm. That's actually part of the natural sleep process. Mm-hmm. You do remember more of your arousals as you get older.
Yeah.
But if you have, let's say you, you roll over and your, you know, your cell phone or your Apple watch or something like that is.
Light, you know, is, is emitting this light in your eye Yeah. You're more likely to have that micro arousal turn into like a larger arousal. Mm-hmm. And that, and every time you have a larger arousal in middle of the night, particularly if you've worn down a lot of sleep pressure,
yes. You
might have a hard time going back to bed.
Right.
Right. Your mind start, you, you're awake and your mind is now working on a challenge or something that's stressful, or you're just up and you're like, oh my gosh, how do, how do I. Yes. And I have to wait two hours before I go back to bed.
Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. Oh, so true. Yeah, and those tips, it's like there's under 10 bucks usually for these little stickers or what have you.
And also we can include your TED Talk too. I know you go into more detail too, around light and beyond and all kinds of, certainly the how to guides and just a quick kind of nod to, I love the guide, but also the actual kind of mini course or what have you. On meal timing. I thought that was so good because that is one that I just feel like still people have not necessarily tapped into how much that can help with your sleep, with your health, with so many factors.
I see it more with wearables since people will start to see, oh wow, yeah, my heart rate goes down by 10 beats per minute on average or what have you when I stop eating so much later, or apnea flare-ups or what have you. So that meal timing one I thought was so good and adding all that research into the why, so at least it gives more oomph to your choice.
'cause it is a little outside of the social norm where that weird behavior that we're talking about, you know?
Yeah, totally. It's very difficult. You, you wanna make things very simple and clear.
Yeah.
But. That will come across as platitudes if you don't offer some mechan mechanistic insight into why it's happening.
Yeah. And so in the process of education, when you can communicate the complex science in a way where people can see how one step leads to the next needs, the next, you're like, okay, I can follow that. Even if you don't remember it all, it will deepen your level of belief.
Mm-hmm. Yes. And I talk about how
belief is not a binary construct, right?
There's not just yes or no. Yes, there's a level of depth to your belief. Mm-hmm. And if you believe it very strongly, that might be more likely to actually help you take part in that. Behavior. Mm. So a good anecdote around the chrono nutrition, how to guide, um, yes.
That's the, the chrono nutrition, how to guide.
Yes. Yeah, exactly.
When I was working on that, and I wanna attribute Greg Potter, who Yes, yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He, he's very knowledgeable on this, this topic. And, um, we were working together when we created it. And it's like one page, right? It's very short.
Yeah. But you had video, I remember, this was years ago.
Yeah. I was watching this, but I remember where I was when I was watching it because I think maybe Greg was kind of speaking on this, on the video part of the chron nutrition, if I'm, I mean, yeah, I'll have to go back and look at it, but, okay. I feel like there was, uh, so much information mm-hmm. Around the wine and like looking at really fascinating research of the same group, you know, in certain research that would eat the same thing and then.
The one that would eat later, same exact calories. They're, you know, oh, sugar gaining all this weight and yeah. What have you. So just the many aspects of health and wellbeing that are impacted just by the timing of these things, which is just fascinating.
There's, um, somebody in my family, she's the spouse of an uncle, and she was a college track coach for her career at Rutgers.
Mm. And when I was talking to her about this, when we were first making it, she said, you know, we didn't know why, but the head coach always said, eat like a clock. He said, yes. They, they're just highly intuitive about what made an athlete perform at their best.
Yeah. And
so have your meals at the same time every day.
Yeah.
Now that might not feel, you might not notice it if you're not a high performing athlete, but a high performing athlete notices everything. Everything. Yes. Because we're talking milliseconds
mm-hmm. With track
events or shooting accuracy, like Totally, totally. Yeah. They can tell.
Yeah. '
cause they're putting their body under the test every day, like peak performance and so.
That was a really interesting endorsement. Mm. When she's a and I was like, oh, wow. You've been doing this for 30 years and you've known you've seen it. Yes. You've seen this. Yeah.
And I always reference the old, I I always say this, probably not PC anymore, but, uh, I was eat like a king for breakfast, queen for lunch, pulper for dinner.
Yeah. Do you ascribe to that volume piece for K Nutrition?
That's an interesting one. Yes. So, you know, meals are challenging in a lot
of ways. Mm-hmm. Yeah.
Do I subscribe to that? Um, I, I believe in the science. Mm-hmm. And there are some reasons for, for that. Uh, one of 'em, having, let's say 25% of your protein in the morning will spontaneously, uh.
Cause your body to take in like 10% less calories over the day. Mm. So getting adequate protein, you will naturally eat less, you'll experience fullness on fewer calories.
So I've been saying that, but I didn't know that stat. That's interesting. Wow. Okay. Very cool.
Yeah, that, that, that's great. That matters a lot for a lot of people.
Mm-hmm. If you look at old texts, the biggest meal of the day was at lunch.
Mm-hmm.
Right? Yeah. And like from, and like that was actually supper. Yes. And so I think you have some flexibility earlier in the day. Later in the day, you know, I call breakfast an independent act where dinner is a social event like mm-hmm.
A lot of people, I have a family of five people, including myself. Yes. Three young boys.
Oh, wow. And
we're all doing our kind of own thing in the morning, but at, yes. At dinner, we come together. Mm-hmm. And that has to be after soccer practices and jiujitsu. Yes. And it's later than I would want it to be. Yes.
But it's a, it's my favorite time of day. Like, we're all together, we talk, we catch up, and we have a great meal. Oh, that's great. So don't stress out too much about it.
Yeah.
Um, but also be careful about. E um, overeating late. Mm-hmm. And that can interfere with the sleep processes that are helping to restore you, and you will feel that the next day.
So what I do in those situations, if you're a little peckish, you know, have something small, um, but. Remind yourself that you'll feel more vigorous and alert the next day if you don't eat too much and go to bed stuffed.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Peter Attia has, was famously had said if he was the czar of everything, then one of his first, you know, decree would be to move just everything earlier.
Yeah. Notably. Meal timing. So that was socially acceptable. 'cause it's tricky 'cause it's, there's the trade offs there. 'cause you wanna also bond with your people and your family and how to, that's very important too. So it's a light thing to tread, but that information in, in your course and how, how to guide is so helpful to kind of just at least have that in the background.
So when you do have the optionality that you can just have a why that that could be impactful.
Yeah. And you know, don't kill me, but Yeah. And it's complicated.
Exactly. The Michael, uh, grander approach. Exactly. It depends. It depends. Depends.
You know what if you had a really hard workout, right? Yeah. At five o'clock right after work.
Yeah. Then you can't compare one meal size. A lot of sleep has to do with energetics. Yeah. And there's actually a cool study that came out in nature just this year, and it talks about how a major driver for sleep pressure is the buildup of reactive oxygen species. Yes. In an area of the brain that.
Initiate sleep.
Mm-hmm. It's
called the ventral lateral preop area. Mm.
And
so what that the activity, when that area of the brain, which is quiet during the day, becomes more active at night, it quiets down a network of wake, uh, promoting neurons. Mm-hmm. And so it's activity, you know, the brain sleep is not just a quiescent state.
Sure. Some parts of the brain are working harder during sleep than any other part
of the day. Mm-hmm.
And what happens is that there is a buildup of electrons. So your, your mitochondria become leaky. Mm-hmm. And they start to leak electrons. Yes. And that leakage. Will cau will stimulate these sleep on neurons.
Mm-hmm. Right.
And so of course meal timing has a lot to do with that. Yes. Your activity level, and I've been thinking, I don't have any clear ideas on this, but how could you man manipulate that? So let's say you didn't get quite enough sleep the night before. Yes. Can you affect that system in a way that makes you feel less sleepy?
Mm-hmm. And then at night, how do you promote that? How do you fuel that system so that you can fall asleep and have more robust, you know, more robust sleep, which we want, right? Yeah. We wanna sleep deeply and we wanna be really alert during the day.
Sure. Wow. So more
we're coming on that, I think.
Yes, absolutely.
And you described it 'cause I, uh, did a newsletter on that, on that study, and yet you just described it of way more eloquently and more beautifully than I ever could. You've just listened to Part One of Our Sleep As a Skill Podcast with Dr. Dan Parti. Stay tuned for part two, which will be out in just a few days.
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