Dr. Dan Pardi is the Chief Health Officer at Qualia Life Sciences, where he leads education initiatives focused on advancing healthspan and optimizing peak performance. Qualia Life Sciences develops products rooted in complex systems science, a framework that recognizes the body’s natural ability to self-regulate and heal. Their growing product line includes support for brain health, cellular health, NAD+ levels, and most recently, Stem Cells. Dr. Pardi holds a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience from Leiden University and Stanford. His work is dedicated to translating cutting-edge scientific research into practical tools and programs that help people live longer, healthier, and higher-performing lives.
Dr. Dan Pardi is the Chief Health Officer at Qualia Life Sciences, where he leads education initiatives focused on advancing healthspan and optimizing peak performance. Qualia Life Sciences develops products rooted in complex systems science, a framework that recognizes the body’s natural ability to self-regulate and heal. Their growing product line includes support for brain health, cellular health, NAD+ levels, and most recently, Stem Cells.
Dr. Pardi holds a PhD in Cognitive Neuroscience from Leiden University and Stanford. His work is dedicated to translating cutting-edge scientific research into practical tools and programs that help people live longer, healthier, and higher-performing lives.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 Mitochondria: The hidden link between energy and deep sleep?
😴 Are we more mitochondria than human?
😴 NAD: The cellular currency shaping restorative sleep.
😴 How do we truly boost NAD, and why it matters.
😴 Do complex formulas outperform single nutrients?
😴 Red light: Energy booster or placebo calm?
😴 What does pressure reveal about sleep and performance?
😴 Grounding: Pseudoscience or bioelectric truth?
😴 Sleep design or discipline, what matters more?
😴 Why do some habits endure while others decay?
😴 Is your caffeine timing quietly sabotaging sleep?
😴 Sleep: Feedback, not just discipline.
😴 What do your nights reveal about your health?
😴 Can simple rituals train deeper rest?
😴 The overlooked skill for better sleep.
😴 Check out QUALIA LIFE, http://www.qualialife.com/sleepisaskill Use 15%
Use code: SLEEPISASKILL
SPONSORS:
🧠 If You “Can’t Turn Your Brain Off” At Night…try a quality magnesium supplement that addresses ALL the necessary forms of magnesium that you need to support calming your nervous system and sleeping deeply. Https://magbreakthrough.com/sleepisaskill
GUEST LINKS:
Website: https://www.qualialife.com/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/qualialife/
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Qualialife
Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/danpardi/
DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing World Class X. Experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends and wellness, and I'm committed to keep.
You up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome back to The Sleep is a Skill podcast where we're diving into part two of our conversation with Dr. Dan Parti. We are exploring so many things, including mitochondria, sleep light, and beyond. Now, in part one, we set the stage why sleep is trained, not just treated. Why light timing and sunlight anchoring?
Steady your clock and why Sleep pressure and mitochondria quietly run the show behind the scenes. Today we go deeper. Dr. Dan Pardi, chief Health Officer at Quality of Life Sciences, AKA Qualia has a PhD in cognitive neuroscience from Stanford and one. Of my favorite translators of hard science into usable habits.
Taking us from the origin story of mitochondria to NAD, the cellular co-enzyme powering the reactions that run your life. Fun fact from Dan, your body does more NAD reactions each day than there are stars in the universe. Now we talk what NAD actually is. Why levels decline with age, how this ties to daytime energy recovery and more reliable sleep at night, and how Dan's system science work at Qualia approaches.
Cellular health with rigorous formulation and clinical testing, not quick fixes. By the end of part two, you'll have a sharper lens on building brighter days and darker nights from the cell up. So we're gonna jump right into this episode, but first a few words from our sponsors. And do check out our show notes where we have promo codes and links in case you wanna test out any of the things that we discussed today.
So we're gonna get right into this final episode, but first, a few words from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep, and one of the first questions people ask me about sleep is what supplement they can take. One supplement I've consistently taken for ages is magnesium, specifically BiOptimizers, magnesium breakthrough.
It's an all natural. Supplement that helps reduce fatigue, improve sleep quality, and promote peaceful rest. It also strengthens muscles and improves heart and brain function. Most magnesium supplements aren't full spectrum, but magnesium breakthrough contains an optimal ratio of all seven essential types of magnesium.
Now imagine having the strength and energy to get outta bed every morning, face the day boldly, and maintain that energy throughout the day and into the night. If you wanna give it a try, go to buy optimizers.com. Sleep is. Skill and use the code sleep as a skill to get gifts with your purchase. And this is a limited time offer, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Just as a quick aside, just curiosity. I don't know if you've heard in the quantum biology space, people speaking to an urge to become a bit of a mitochondria with the concept that if you become more mitochondrial centric mm-hmm. That this could support many aspects of health, including sleep. I mean, that's kind of a broad question, but uh, do you think that there's much merit there?
Mitochondria are one of my favorite topics.
Okay. Okay. Maybe this can lead us into NAD as well.
Yeah,
potentially.
Okay. So, um. I thinking about how much to like go over this. I know so much there. Yeah. So, so mitochondria entered into cells during something called the Great Endo Symbiotic event in the first 3 billion years of life.
Oh my God. Yeah. Okay. Well said.
So Endosymbiosis meant that for the first, probably the only time ever that this happened on our planet. Mm. One organism entered into another archaea and took residence. Mm. So it wasn't digested. It took residents and then there was a division of labor. So the ArcHa then said, I'm going to handle all of the genetic information.
I'm gonna create a nucleus, I'm gonna create other organelles that are going to compartmentalize tasks. Mm-hmm. And the mitochondria said, okay, here, take most of the DNA, but not all of it. I'm gonna keep enough DNA where I can make my own proteins. Mm. And I'm gonna handle energy production.
Mm.
And when that happened, there was a billion fold increase in cell size.
Wow. From the first cells.
I did not know that. Yes. Okay.
And every gene now had a thousand times more energy. Mm. That it could be, uh, dedicate to, uh, protein production.
Mm.
So what this enabled was cells going from tiny little. Ty, teeny, tiny little features that only could do a few things. Okay. To now being able to do much, much more.
Mm.
And so the first 3 billion years of life, which took place about 700 million years after the beginning of the Earth, they were all, it was all about how cells figured out how to optimize their efficiency. Mm. Which then enabled what we call multicellularity, which was about six to 800 billion, uh, million years ago.
Which meant that now cells could come together. And act in coordination with one another. Mm. And that would not have happened if mitochondria were not, uh, if that endo symbiotic event did not happen. Wow. Yeah. Like, wow. 50% of your dry weight is probably mitochondria.
Mm.
You have far more mitochondria than you have cells because you have.
Tens to hundreds of mitochondria in every cell.
Mm.
So what are we, are we more mitochondria than we are? Yeah. Right. Yeah. They are a, uh, highly critical piece to who we are. Mm-hmm. How we develop. How we age, athletic performance. Mm-hmm. Sleep.
Yes.
They're involved, everything.
Wow. Yeah.
Very, very cool.
Fascinating. Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
Okay. And how might that potentially ties into this topic of NAD and exciting new research that we're discovering there?
Yeah. Yes. So one thing that I do now, so the primary thing that I do now is I'm the chief health officer for, uh, quality of life sciences,
which is not a small role.
Yes.
It's, I'm so fortunate to be at this company. Mm. And I've been doing health education now, you know, for over a decade, probably more. And I've always been interested in the supplement space. Mm-hmm. Because I think there's great potential to take good science and put it into the easiest format possible for a person to benefit from, from that.
Sure. Imagine if you could like. Put sleep into a pill. Right, right. Yeah. Now that grand idea. Of course, you know, we, we can't take entire physiological processes and put 'em into a pill, but that idea is really seductive if we could.
Sure. Yeah. So
how can we use good science to fuel and promote and encourage certain activities in this complex network that we are and now.
The supplement industry has had not necessarily the best reputation across its history because there's a low barrier of entry, but there's a whole new field of companies that are, you know, almost like one step away from a pharmaceutical company. Mm. That they do. They, they're putting a lot of very good science in and looking to.
Take every step of the process of ideation on what are the areas that we wanna address, what are some areas of need, formulation, distribution, like getting, getting it all right so that your dollar is really contributing to, you know, for a particular product is helping you with your whole, uh, health practice.
Sure.
Right.
Which will involve, I mean, everybody's up gets to choose what they think, but it'll likely involve all sorts of products.
Yeah. Right.
Sheets. Uh, blue light visors. Mm-hmm. Yeah. On and on and on. So. When their CEO, James Schmuck Berger, lovely guy, we, we've been friends for a long time. I met them when they just started their company.
He came to Austin, we had coffee and he said, Hey Dan, we'd love for you to talk about the science of health span. Mm-hmm. And the different areas that we are addressing. And I said this. Sounds great. So anyway, I've been, it's about two months I've been at the company and they have products looking at NAD and Lytics.
Yeah. Which helps to clear out senescent cells, stem cell products. So that's what I'm doing, uh, four days a week now, one day working on my book.
Exciting. Okay. Yeah. And how might NAD be relevant to this conversation around sleep?
So going back to this idea of energetics. Mm-hmm. So NNAD is this co-factor that is, and I'll describe what a co-factor is.
So, um, I'm sorry. It's a co-enzyme, a mm-hmm. Enzymes are like little machines mm-hmm. That are doing. Jobs in cells, they're helping to make a process or some, something happen in a cell, and a co-enzyme is like a tool that that machine can pick up and use to do its job.
Mm-hmm.
Okay. So you need those tools.
Then a co-factor, like a co-factor would be things like magnesium. These are inorganic molecules. That would be like a bolt. That would have to go onto the machine in order for that enzyme for it to do its work. Sure. Now, what these co-enzyme do, um, as Charles Brenner calls them, they are, the, the crown jewels of our metabolism is they enable the energy transfer that helps every single metabolic process occur.
Mm.
In the whole body. Wow.
Yeah. So there's probably three to 500 million NAD molecules in every cell, and each one of them is undergoing a thousand redox reactions. Mm-hmm. Per cell, per day. So when you add all of that up, and we have 37 trillion cells in the body mm-hmm. The level of NA, the number of NAD reactions that are taking place in the body is more than the, the number of known stars in the universe.
What,
oh my god. When you put it like that. Right. Geez. Okay. So
it's important. Yeah. So it's,
it's gotta be important. Yes. Yeah, it's
important. And what ends up happening is that the levels of NAD that are in the body decline. So by the time you're 50? Yes. Like I am, I'm 51. Yes. Uh, you'll have half of the NAD that you did when you were younger.
Mm-hmm. Okay. So you have less. Cabs available to transport people or electrons around a cell so that everything comes to every, all of metabolism slows down.
Mm. All the
metabolism slows down.
Okay.
It's, and then. Because it's limited, then certain processes and cells are favored and other ones are left behind.
Like we're gonna handle these critical processes first. Mm. At the expense of other ones that are less immediate or critical, but also still important. Sure. And so this is consequential to the aging process, and it's probably not the driver. Um, what is the ultimate cause of aging? Mm-hmm. But it is something that neuroscientists people that are looking to intervene in aging to affect it positively are really excited about.
In fact, you could argue that NAD boosting technology, so thing, um, techniques to try to increase the level of NAD in your cells mm-hmm. Was the first real health span. Um, specific product that came into this geoscience space.
Wow. Yeah. And no affiliation and yet really fascinated with some of the new products with Qualia and NAD.
What is making them kind of stand out from the rest?
Yeah, I think that it is our approach. So there's a few things. The way that we approach the development of a supplement mm-hmm. Is in respect to the complexity of the human body. Mm-hmm. So we take a system science approach, systems biology approach, how does the system work overall?
And instead of adding one nutrient that might indeed. Be consequential to having an effect. How do we affect all of the different parts, or at least mo many of them?
Mm-hmm.
So that we can keep that system running better overall. So for example, with our NAD product, we provide precursors that allow the body to make more NAD, which we've.
Demonstrated clinically, it's been demonstrated elsewhere. These are things like nicotinamide riboside or nicotinamide Mononucleo side NR or NMN. Mm-hmm. These things are taken up by cells and then they undergo metabolism of their own. That ultimately leads to an increase in N ad plus levels. Hmm. Okay, great.
We want that. Um, but there's also. Products that are in there that are supporting the entire kreb cycle and oxidative phosphorylation and glycolysis. So it's not just looking at one part of that chain, but how does energy production overall, how is overall improved and even compounds that then will affect the en enzyme systems that will help these levels.
Yeah. You know, like you could have all the precursors there, but if you don't have en the enzymes needed to convert them into NAD, then that is another area of opportunity. That's how we see product formulation.
Mm.
How can we support the entire system? And then one thing that I'm really proud of is that every product that we have on the market undergoes, uh, clinical trials.
Yeah. Right. And that's gotta be pretty standout 'cause it's gotta be pricey and time consuming. And not every company's doing that.
That's right.
Yeah.
We just won an award from the nutrition, um, uh, business journal, uh, fors Science and Innovation. Mm. Because we do this. Mm-hmm.
So
it starts, the way that we do it is we start with simple things like surveys.
Mm-hmm.
The
surveys are going to then capture what do. People who tried this product first say, mm-hmm. That's really valuable.
Yeah, sure.
But there's fewer controls on that.
Yeah, right.
Then we might move into a single blind placebo controlled trial. Where, um, the person who is taking the supplement doesn't know what they're taking, but we do.
Mm-hmm. And then 'cause science always builds on top of itself. Yeah. You start small and when you have good positive signs, this is something you want to invest in more. You now do a study design that is more complicated, more expensive, but offers a higher level of confidence that the results that you're getting are indeed, um, having the effect that you wanna see.
Sure.
And so with the NND product, we've now done I think, four studies. So moving, moving in complexity, um, that have demonstrated 67% increase in NAD levels as measured by what you can find in the blood. So, um, you can look at a variety of things. You can look at plasma, you can look at leukocytes or white blood cells.
There's different ways that you can measure it. Um, but some of those levels are. Comparable. Like there you don't have uniform absorption. Yeah. Throughout your body. Harder to get into the brain.
Mm. You have
even better absorption of NAD in the liver. It's a very metabolically active tissue. Mm. Um, so like it's not uniform.
Yeah. It's complicated. Yes,
exactly. Yep. Yeah.
But what we're seeing is that. You, we do have signs that boosting your entity levels through precursor supplementation, enzymatic support, um, B vitamin support, things like that is having a positive effect. And then you would also want to test clinical outcomes.
Mm-hmm. So how do people feel? Do you, are they noticing it or can we observe something objective by measuring something from baseline to six weeks?
Mm-hmm.
And so overall in this space, boosting NAD has shown to improve things like vascular. Uh, flexibility. Mm. So as you get older, your vessels become stiffer and they have a harder time opening up and dilating mm-hmm.
To deliver blood flow to parts of the body. When, um, earlier studies by Chroma deck showed that taking NR there was increased flexibility. So the, the blood vessels looked younger.
Mm.
There have been studies looking at. Uh, boosting strategies in terms of working memory so some can get into the brain and improve thinking.
Hmm. So, so it, again, it's making, it is, uh, bringing a person who has aged back in time in a way.
Wow. Yeah.
There's skin products that are both oral or topical. Mm-hmm. So there's a lot of different applications now, and there's even a whole. Suite of different types of delivery methods, injection, um, internasal iv, and they might.
For each one of those, we'll have to, the people that are overseeing their development will have to demonstrate why that methodology is better for a specific purpose. Mm-hmm. Than the precursors. Sure. In my mind.
Yeah. '
cause they're usually expensive and
yes,
there's even patches. But anyway, there's a whole business on this now that is looking to see how we can sustain NAD levels for longer.
And so if someone is struggling with their sleep mm-hmm and or just looking to optimize their sleep, is that a place that would make sense for them to look? 'cause there's so many supplements and so many people that promise to improve and help support sleep. In your estimation and your vast knowledge around the sleep space, does that make sense to maybe even begin there or ex certainly explore that, that conversation?
Yes. In the sense, I wouldn't think that that's the first thing you would do. Yeah. But. Remember that sleep is not only a health behavior, but it's also a, um, a reflection of the health you have. Yes. Right?
Yes. Such a mirror, uhhuh. Yeah. Yeah.
So it's both. So we want to be able, the more that we can support our health in ways that seem disconnected or indirect
mm-hmm.
We can find that there are, uh, consequences. Good and bad, but good Typically when we're doing things right, that you would never have connected. Mm. You wouldn't have connected these two things and you're like, gosh, you know, I am. Feeling a lot better now.
Yeah, right.
So yeah, I think supporting NED levels as we age is something that I've become increasingly interested in and, and I follow that strategy.
Yeah. I wouldn't take Qualy as NED product at night. I was just
gonna say that the timing piece, the chrono pharmacology aspect of it. Yeah.
Yeah. The reason why is that there is a biphasic nature to the. NAD over the course of a day. Mm-hmm. People can take NAD boosting at at night and that there's reasons to do that.
'cause you're actually then supporting NAD processes that are contributing to rebuilding. Sure. But our product has a very minor amount of caffeine in it. Mm-hmm. Not anything that you'd let like half of a cup of a weak tea.
Yes. Yeah.
But the reason why is because caffeine itself. As it, I, uh, affects an enzyme that is the, the one step between the last metabolic product between these precursors.
Mm-hmm. And formation of NAD. Mm. So there's a study that our chief formulator found that said, okay, this is interesting to include, you know, people Yes, of course, do a lot of caffeine in the morning. Mm-hmm. But let's make sure that they're getting this little extra boost because we think it's gonna help with conversion.
Hmm.
So
will 20 milligrams of caffeine keep you up at night? Maybe. Mm-hmm.
But I,
so I would take it in the morning. Yes. But it's, I've tried multiple products and this has been my favorite.
Mm. Yeah. Quick aside on the caffeine, are you a fan of Zaine by any chance?
Yeah. Is it Rare Bird Coffee?
Rare Bird does, yeah.
Uses Zaine. I'm friends with Sean Wells, who is Okay. Here in Austin. Yeah. And so he's has a trademark for Infinity, the use of particular sourcing around Pyrazine, and so they're using that in Update and a few other products. So yeah, it's starting to. Infiltrate the market a bit more, but curious. 'cause it's being labeled as sleep friendly.
Yeah.
Yeah.
I love the idea, as you well know. Yeah. There's a circadian dip in the afternoon. Yes. It's when a lot of people need a boost. Sure. So what happens is that your wake network is, doesn't work as strongly for a very brief window in the afternoon. Mm-hmm. And as a result, you feel the sleep pressure.
Yeah. More than you would previously. Yeah. The sleep pressure has been building from the moment you woke up through because you've been active in thinking and doing daytime activities.
Yeah.
And counteracting that rising tide of sleep pressure is a circadian wake drive, so controlled by your circadian rhythm that is increasing its intensity.
Yeah.
To keep you awake. So they're co, they're basically like, as one rises, the other one rises with it to counteract it.
Mm. And in
that little dip in the afternoon, the wake drive. Backs off a little bit and you start, that's where you feel really sleepy. That's where you could take a nap where you couldn't have otherwise.
That's when siestas happened.
Yes. In
cultures that observe them.
Yeah. Yeah. Anyway,
there's this leaves a lot of people looking for a solution. Mm-hmm. In the afternoon to kinda rack that because they've got a meeting. Yeah, exactly.
We want, they've got a podcast. Yes. We want the free lunch, uh, to be able to feel better and yet not impact our sleep.
Yeah. In the evening. Yeah. Okay. Exactly. Interesting.
So Persantine might actually help
Yeah.
With that because what we know is that unfortunately caffeine has a long halflife. So if you were to take, let's say a, a shot of espresso or a cup of coffee at 3:00 PM or let's say two, it might, it would probably make you feel a little bit better.
Yeah. But you would now have a situation where you still have the adenosine blocking effects mm-hmm. Of caffeine working when you wanna go to bed. Mm-hmm. And because that molecule is important to help drive the sleep process.
Absolutely.
You, if you're blocking it, you're gonna feel, you know, tired but wired.
Mm-hmm. You're gonna feel like sleepy, but you can't sleep. Yes. And it's gonna cause uh, it's gonna make it really hard for you to go to bed.
Yeah. And you're
gonna be miserable. Exactly.
Yes. I've been there. So, on this big topic of NAD, is there anything glaring that we missed, um, around NAD and sleep that is important to address?
Yeah, so just going back to this idea of this. New work, looking at how energy leaking is driving the activity of these sleep active neurons. Mm.
A
lot of. NAD is not just how much is in a cell, but also the ratios. Mm-hmm. So they're handling what are called redox reactions. Mm-hmm. Shuttling electrons back and forth.
Mm-hmm. From Che, you know, to support chemical reactions and. Um, the other molecule, this other coenzyme for NAD plus is NADH. Mm. One of them is the oxidized form. The other one is the reduced form, and it turns out that the ratio of NAD plus to NADH. Is not uniform within a cell. In the cytosol, it's like one to 700
mm.
Okay.
In the mitochondria, it's actually much, much less. And those ratios are altered over the course of a day, and that will also contribute to the energy that is available and will also then lead to this effect that we talked about previously of now there's these leaky neurons. They're not being cleaned up and it's drive.
It drives sleep.
Yes.
So yes, NAD boosters would be involved in that process and might, the consequence of it is it might help you feel more awake during the day and. What we want is, like I said earlier, you want really robust alertness during the day. Yeah. And the more that you're up and active and using your brain, using your mind, using your body, then that's gonna help create more of these signals that then it's gonna help you sleep deeply at night.
Yeah. So it's this. It's this back and forth. Right. And what we don't want is a flattened amplitude. Mm-hmm. Where you're not really awake during the day. Mm-hmm. And you don't sleep very deeply at night.
Yes, exactly. That's what we wanna avoid. Okay. And I'm relatively new to quality's NAD products, and yet I was very grateful that they had sent that on over.
So I've been able to kind of test some of that. And granted it's, you know, still new for me, but in Mike's. Experience so far, it has felt like there has been that added energy boost by day. Cool. And supportive. Sleep at night. So many factors. Oh my gosh. The amount of variables that I have, you know, all the time that I'm testing this and that, blah.
It's always hard to isolate, but so far that experience was really, really interesting. So I am curious to Nice. Continue to learn more. So,
do you know what, so when we think about energy, we can think about like how much physical energy that I have. Mm-hmm. But what we're really talking about is the energy cells have to do their job.
Yes, exactly. So
remember that. Remember, sleep is an active process too. Mm-hmm. You want. Yourselves to have the right amount of energy to do it, to do the rebuilding process. Mm-hmm. So it's not just alertness. Yes. Arousal. Mm-hmm. It is cellular energy. And where I noticed the product more than I, I wasn't suspect, I wasn't expecting this.
Yeah. But
was recovery from exercise.
Oh, interesting. Yeah,
yeah,
yeah. 'cause I've been adding a lot more weight training in this year than in previous years and so that has been something that I have been playing with too. Is that recovery time. Yeah. Uh, different stacks for that and supports and so that's really great to hear.
I'll have to keep monitoring that.
Tell me what you think. I was really attuned to it 'cause I was frustrated. Okay. By how long I was taking to recover from a hard workout. Uh,
totally. Yeah. I was
like, oh gosh. You know, it's, it's like I'm losing my fitness just waiting for, to be back in a place where I feel good enough to work out again.
Yes.
And it's re it's, that's had the biggest noticeable impact. 'cause I've been monitoring this for years now. Yes. With a little bit of frustration. Oh my gosh. And now feeling really good.
That's great. And then I just got a hyperbaric, if you ever wanna Oh, nice. Come on over and utilize it. Oxy Health was great.
They just sent one over, and yet I still have to figure out how to fully set it up. So yeah, stay tuned. But actually quick aside, fascinating podcast episode with this who's being called Dr. Deep Sea, who slept for over a hundred nights. And basically submarine to be able to mimic the high component of, um, hyperbaric.
Yeah. And what he found, just as a side on the sleep piece and recovery and what have you, was that, and this is just anecdotal, he happened to be wearing an ora ring throughout the whole process, and he was originally sleeping, getting around 30%, 20 in the twenties to 30% deep sleep pretty routinely, and then virtually every single night under water getting around.
50% deep sleep, which I've never heard in my whole life. And so supposedly, again anecdotal, but I believe the research grant that he was able to receive was over 30 million to be researching hyperbaric and with a component around sleep. Which will be really fascinating. So I say that because of the recovery aspect of things.
That was one of the things that was noted was your ability to recover with something like hyperbaric. Um, I'm
very interested in this real, are you? Yes.
Oh, okay. Yes. Yeah. Really good. And you know it, so yeah. Yeah. And the other. Cool thing with that was that he was eating really regimen. 'cause they had many doctors that were following this whole process.
And so he was eating the same amounts, uh, above ground. And then when he went into this, you know, environment, kept eating that same amount of food, but then they, he started dropping weight and so they were pointing to his metabolism was. So revved up and so they're having to give him more food to be able to just sustain mm-hmm.
The states that he was at. So just some of the changing in his biology was just really so fascinating enough so to warrant this press and, uh, research grants. So, so cool. Molly, really fascinating, I feel like, and he comes to Austin pretty routinely, you know, do you know Dr. Kirk Parsley by any chance? Yeah.
Okay, so he's friends with him. Okay. He is former Navy Seal. Okay. And has a lab. Over, is it University of Tampa, I believe now. So maybe we can connect you guys.
Yeah, I would love to learn from him because the idea is really interesting. Right. So if for the listener, if they're less familiar with hyperbaric, the idea is that you put yourself, it's measured in what we call atmospheres.
Sure. So typical levels would be like 1.3, 1.5. Mm-hmm. Medically is medical. Hyperbaric is, tends to be around two atmospheres. Mm. What that means is that you're dealing with twice the atmospheric pressure as being at sea level.
Mm-hmm. So
when you go down under the water, imagine all of that pressure on top of you.
Yes. So one of the soft shell chambers, like, uh, what you probably have Yes. Where you fill it out. Yes. That's what I have. Yep. That is like a 1.3 atmosphere. Yes. So there's higher pressure and then they can also add in and change the level of oxygen so that. So you add like a hundred percent oxygen or close to it, where the normal atmospheric os oxygen levels around like 22%.
Mm. So you have increased oxygen. But some people that I've spoken to who are very knowledgeable think it's really just the pressure, not the increased oxygen,
uh, density
in the chamber. But what ends up happening is that you have typically oxygen is carried in the blood through hemoglobin. These are basically like oxygen carrying bags that get saturated when we breathe and then you deliver 'em to tissues and that they're, they're the end stage of our oxidative metabolism.
Hmm. So it's where the food you eat Yeah. And the air that you breathe come together Yes. At the final step of energy creation. Sure. Okay. And what's interesting about hyperbaric is that. Because of the pressure, you perfuse more oxygen into the plasma, which is not, which is typically free of oxygen. And what that ends up happening is that, so you're now carrying a lot more oxygen in your blood.
Mm-hmm. And because of the pressure, it's perfusing, it's getting it into tissues.
Mm-hmm.
That. Will support energy metabolism throughout the body. So particularly as you get older, you, one thing, there's a couple of pharmaceutical companies that are working on this right now is like a vegf, uh, which is a endothelial derived growth factor that helps your body, uh, create blood vessels to get into tissues.
As you get older, you make less of those, so it's harder to get. Energy to tissues, energy and oxygen and waste products out. So everything's not working quite as well.
Yeah,
right. There's fewer roads to go to the deepest parts of our tissue and hyperbaric can both support that acutely, but also chronically 'cause it's helping to create more vessels if you do it enough.
Wow. And the biggest study in that, which was fascinating, had to do with men dealing with erectile dysfunction out of a study in Israel. What?
Oh, I didn't realize that. Okay. And
they had amazing results. Yeah. And then the, it's probably like the most oversold, like clinical trial of all time. Like they have, they have a list of thousands of men that are wanting to now do it and Oh, I bet sure.
Thats what they treat it in the clinic. Yes. But you have to sit in this chamber for 90 minutes for, you know, day after day. Yes. For months. Yes. And. You bet. You know, this kind of comes down to a bigger philosophical question about health is how do you fit it all in.
Mm-hmm. Yes. Right. Yeah.
More, you know, this is Yes.
Another cool thing that I'd love to benefit from and where do, where do I find the time and the money? Yeah. So, exactly. Yeah.
Okay. Wow. Well, that was such a, and thank you for going with me on that little tangent. I appreciate that. Fascinating. The way you articulated that just gives so much more depth to this conversation of why that would be applicable for overall health and sleep potentially.
Yeah. So fascinating. Okay. Alright. So clearly with you there's so many avenues we could go and I'll try to bring us back. So thank you for meandering with me. So. There are four questions that we ask everyone that comes on the podcast, and we've found that people really seem to like these because especially someone like yourself who has such, you know, wealth of knowledge, how you're managing your own sleep and health is really pretty fascinating.
So first question is, how are you currently managing your sleep routine at night?
Yeah, so I am, what's new is that I do red light exposure.
Okay, great.
Yeah. Prior. So I have a. Full quad bed, uh, that's upright in my closet and I do that for five minutes front and back before bed.
Nice. Okay, great.
So I did a podcast with, uh, Michael Hamlin, professor Emeritus from Harvard,
amazing
Lifetime Achievement Award winner from the North American Laser Light Association.
Yeah. All on his work, looking at what's now called photobiomodulation, which includes, so one of the problems with the space Yes. Is that there was. Like literally 25, 30 different ways it was referred to in the scientific literature. Yes. Which made it really hard uhhuh to know like how to search for it and study it.
Yes.
So they came together and said, let's call the field of red light infrared light. Uh, photo biomodulation.
Yes.
So that is something that I don't address in my TED talk at all.
Mm-hmm.
I'm really talking more about circadian rhythm effects. Sure. But red light is a whole new field. That is fascinating.
Fascinating.
Yes. I've got this helmet over here among just random biohacks. Oh, cool. That uses photo biomodulation for the brain. So transcranial. So, okay. So, and you're using that routinely every night?
Yeah.
Fantastic.
I do. And I want to come back and connect it. I don't Yeah, please. Uh, to the energetics around sleep induction.
Yeah.
So I don't exactly know what's happening. Mm-hmm. But I think there two might be connected. Yeah. And I remember Dr. Hamlin on the podcast that we did. He said, yeah, whenever I have insomnia at night, I'm not feeling like I woke. I wake up, I do a little red light on my skull and I fall right back asleep.
Interesting. Yeah. And it might have to do with nitric oxide induction. Mm. But the way that red light works, I mean there's probably, there's like 14 different. Factors that you can detect at least in response to red light. There are, there are physiological changes that are occurring in response to, to, to light coming into the body.
But the most discussed is its effect on, uh, cytochrome c Mm. So that you have these chromophores on your mitochondria that are sensitive to light and it changes how much energy is produced. Mm-hmm. So the reason why helmets to regrow hair or possibly to, uh. Um, boost cognitive health mm-hmm. Are out there.
Why face masks To boost skin health. Mm-hmm. Are there is because you're improving the energetics of the mitochondria, at least at the areas that can be, you know, um, where the red light can penetrate.
Mm-hmm.
So. The nice, if you shine, look a light on your hand like a flashlight mm-hmm. It'll look red. Yeah.
And so the, the red light can actually make it through your skin where other, uh, spectral spectrum of light actually gets blocked. Mm. So it can make it in like about a quarter inch. And that's way like, superficial tissues are gonna benefit more. But there's fascinating research like using red light. Um, before a exercise program for six weeks, like two, two groups of people Yeah.
That are doing the exact same workout and the anabolic response to people that do red light before their workout was like, more than double. Than doing the same workout.
Wild. Yeah. Wild. Yeah, there's
a lot. It's a very, very interesting space, and I think that there's a connection to sleep, but I do it in the morning and night.
Yes.
Oh, great. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So you're doing it at night? Full body as much as possible. Yeah. Okay, great. And so anything else that we would see in your evening routine or observe?
Yeah, so I have an alarm that goes off at eight 30 where I put on orange colored glasses.
Nice. Yeah. Yeah. Yep.
I have a setting on my phone that changes the light that is admitted from my device.
Mm-hmm. Because I found that instead of hiding my device and not using it, yes. What makes me relax at night is working on my to-do list the next day. Mm-hmm. Which helps sort out. Not only all the things that I wanna work on, but the order that I wanna work on them. Sure. And that puts my mind to rest.
Yes.
So, yeah, absolutely. Huge. Okay. I like that. Yeah.
Other people say, don't talk about, don't think about work. Yeah. Within an hour. The opposite is true for me. If that stuff was, um. Like
hanging, unorganized, open and Yeah, yeah, yeah. The stressors. Yeah. Okay.
So, so, but the light coming into the eye does matter.
Mm-hmm.
So I now have to, I wear readers and I have orange tinted readers. Um, great. Which helps as well. Yeah. And the phone is set to this orange tone. It looks nothing like a regular phone. Yes. Um, and setting it up is a little bit complicated. Yeah. But doable. Mm-hmm. We have a how to guide on how to do that.
Mm-hmm. Yeah. Which helps. Um, and then. Yeah, earplugs and an eye mask is. Something I've been on forever.
Yes. So, and we know you put your little stickers on everything that might be glowing. Okay. Yeah. Great
environmental design.
Yes.
And then the more recent edition is I am trying grounding sheets.
Oh, interesting.
Yeah. What's your take on that?
Well, like a lot of things in like the health and wellness sphere, they can seem woo. Mm-hmm. Or like BS when you first hear about them. Yeah. But I am. Unsurprised when these things actually do contribute
Yeah.
In powerful ways. Sure. So there are clothing that are grounding, and the idea is that it's essentially supporting your redox processes.
Mm-hmm. So it's helping with an serve as like an antioxidant by having these negative electrons come into the body. So a grounding sheet is something that you would lay on. Uh, there's now. There's grounding pads that you can put under your feet when you're working. Mm-hmm. There's clothing. So I'm, uh, I'm trying that to see if that also helps with recovery.
Yeah. Yeah, I'd be curious what you kind of land on with that. 'cause yeah, I always, when that topic comes up, I keep hearing such split camps on some people like, oh, can actually make things worse. 'cause then you're pulling out potentially dirty electricity or making yourself more sensitive, uh, EMFs and building biology.
And then you can start to go down certain rabbit holes, but then other people will be like, no, it's made such a difference. It's. So understandable. And especially then certain people point to manually putting outside, you know, your window and right into a stake in the ground. So it's actually grounded from like an electrical perspective, but more hands-on versus into an outlet.
Yeah. So I'm very curious what you find.
I've noticed positive effects.
Yeah. Okay.
Yeah.
Great.
So, um, I had achille tendon issues mm-hmm. Which has led to inflammation Sure. In the area. I actually have a partial tear on both sides, which is so frustrating. Yes. And um, typically what happens, like these are injuries that are very old.
Mm-hmm. So I played a lot of basketball growing up. Twisted my ankle, that probably increased the inflammatory state that over 20 years rusted my Achilles faster. Yes. At a faster pace. Uhhuh that led to than Achilles type problems. So, you know, I hobble around and in the morning am stiff for a little bit and that happens when you get older.
Sure. When I use these devices, I wake up and I feel like. Like I did 20 years ago. What? It's amazing.
That's great. Yeah. I love that. Yeah. So I think it's
having a actual effect on inflammation.
Ugh, amazing. And I encourage
people to play with ideas. Exactly.
Yeah,
yeah,
yeah. Of kind of. And equals one situation to explore.
Yeah. Um, and then with, you know, different wearables or even just subjectively and even if you wanna manually kind of, yeah. Sleep diary or what have you see what can make that difference. So great idea. Love that. Okay. Great idea. Okay, so that might be your evening routine currently. And then what might we see in your mornings?
Sleep routine with the idea that how you start your day can impact your sleep. And I literally often think of you when I'm saying that because thinking of the sunlight anchoring piece among many other things.
Thank you. Yeah. So, you know, I have a cup of coffee when I wake up. I also take like quality NAD.
Mm-hmm. So there are certain things that are I, I'm taking that help my energy get off to the right start. I also have a new light that is a very bright circadian light. Mm-hmm. That is over my desk. Uh, and so if I don't walk my kids to school, even if I do, I'm still using this light. Sure. But it's improved a lighting environment, so I went from less than 250 lux in terms of light intensity.
Mm. A lux is a, uh, unit of light intensity. Mm-hmm. And it should be at 250 lux or greater in your space that you're spending time in during the day. Yeah. And. Mm. Even with the lights in my office on full brightness, it wasn't getting there.
Mm.
Now I'm over 1500 lux with this light. Great. And so it's quite bright.
It's, um, a bit harsh. I would say that, uh, harsh in the sense that it's like a, a soft warm light is pleasant to the eyes. Mm-hmm. But at night, like I, or during the day, excuse me, a bright. Um, like around 5,000, 6,000 Kelvin is very blue. Yeah. A little acerbic, like you're in a hospital.
Sure, yes.
That's gonna keep you alert,
Uhhuh.
And it's that tone of light. And so when I'm working, that is over my head and that's been great.
Was that a particular like bulb brand or light itself or,
there's a few of them. That are out there and I forget the brand. Mm, mm-hmm. I bought it on Amazon. Okay. But yeah.
Okay. Kind of like maybe circadian light bulbs.
Yeah. And Amazon. Okay. And then if you, if you um, do, yeah, that could be great. Yeah. 'cause we can add that Fascinating. 'cause yeah. The environmental piece and then even just, I found for people even just using the phone lux meters, you know? Mm-hmm. So the photo lux meters can be really fascinating just from.
Fun. I think this is fun. A fun way to get yourself light aware Yeah. Of what's going on in your space. And you only have to do it usually a couple times to kind of get the gist of where you're spending your time and then then, you know, and then you can make those changes and then benefit, reap the benefits with your sleep and your energy.
Yeah.
Can make such a difference. There's,
there's two categories. There's environmental design mm-hmm. And behavior change.
Yes.
Right. And the environmental design is. Best described as one bigger effort and then you reap the benefits going forward. Mm-hmm. Like getting the stickers and putting 'em on all the little lights.
It's a little
annoying in the beginning, but takes a couple seconds or whatever.
Yeah. It took 10 minutes. Yeah. You know Exactly. At at best. Yeah. Getting the right lighting. So that is all now really easy. 'cause that's the default of my environment.
Mm-hmm.
The behavior change. Is now putting on the glasses at the right time.
Yes. Which means when my alarm goes off, I have to get up, whatever I'm doing, go get 'em.
Yeah. Yeah.
So then, you know, environmental design might also make them more accessible, like are they, where do you tend to be at that time of day? Yes. And can you put 'em close by? But. All of that is taking the information and trying to make your environment better and your interactions with your environment healthier and it becomes easy.
Yeah. It it really does. It really does. It becomes the new way. You just do things and it's not hard.
Yeah.
So when, it sounds like a lot, if you're listening and you're like, gosh, it sounds like so much.
Yes.
It, and it's kind of like when you try to read the manual. For setting something up. Mm-hmm. And you're like, oh, this seems so complicated.
Yes. And then you watch the YouTube video do it and you're like, that wasn't actually that bad at all. Yes, exactly. And, and you do, you actually do it. You're like, that took 30 seconds.
Yeah.
That's kind of an analogy for a lot of this
so true, is that it's
actually easy once you just get it all set up.
Yeah.
And then when you know, kind of this background, I love how you said, hopefully for people to get curious and interested to learn more. Yeah. Because then some of the things that you uniquely do that we didn't touch on can just fall into that kind of grid system. Like so for instance, I know we're talking about David Sampson and Yeah.
One of the things that he added in our episode was circadian video game timing. And so like when might you put your video games? So maybe you don't wanna do that right before bed. It's too activating, you're killing people or whatever. Yeah, yeah. So daytime circadian alignment, or maybe you do day drinking or maybe, you know, just making this approachable and practical.
But then once you know, just. The basic okay. Day mode, night mode, we probably wouldn't wanna put all the alert promoting things into night mode. And so then it can all apply in our lives. So, and I feel like your, your courses and what have you do such a good job of explaining that. And I know we didn't even touch on so many aspects of those other components, so.
Having people get curious about learning more. Yeah. Could make such a difference.
Stay curious. Stay
curious. Yes. Stay
curious. Yeah. It's okay. It's not weird. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Don't think you're gonna know it all tomorrow. Mm-hmm. It's not an, there's not an end state to it.
Yes.
But just keep engaging. Yes. Keep trying, keep learning.
You will figure stuff out. You will be glad you did. You'll be really grateful that you did.
Yes.
Like you.
Yeah.
Uh, I also had a, around the time I started working at Orphan Medical, I had developed a sleep disorder from just at that time of my life. I was staying out late. Yeah. And I'd say, well, I'm getting eight hours.
Yeah.
But I had absolute social jet lag. Yes. And it made me miserable.
Oh, totally.
For months. And so there was a personal connection to this too. Mm-hmm. That really did help.
Yeah.
And. You know, then I was personally interested in figuring out how to solve this. Yes.
So I get it. I feel like that can help having that.
Yeah. You know, that drive in the background and then the fruits of your labor, you know, it's just not for doing this, for like no good reason. Then you get to actually feel better. Yeah. I mean, it's so funny when I'll speak with people and they're coming even just from an optimization perspective, and they're just, they're dragging and they're just.
So maybe this is just how it is for me. This is all that's available for me with my sleep. And then you look at their, whether sleep sets or sleep tests or what have you. And then if I, I will say if, if my sleep from the social jet lag aspect of things, if I had this jaggedness of my like wake up time and my bedtime, I too would feel horrible.
And I have done that in the past. And yet the beauty that can come about, even though it's. So unsexy to have consistency and like Right. Go to bed at the same time. Wake up at the same time. But the difference, and I just feel like it's becoming more and more rare for people to feel like this. Yeah. And maybe just having no clue.
Yeah. That the NAD, that the timing of your. Sandwich that the, you know, the timing of your drink of whatever can make such a difference on how you feel the next day and the next day and the next day. It's just so fascinating and, and becomes such a rarity nowadays when people are struggling and dragging and indoors so often, and environment design and behavioral issues.
So, yeah. Yeah.
You know, it's funny. What you're were saying just sort of triggered this memory for me. Mm-hmm. So the behavior model that I developed, the loop model.
Yeah.
So there's four parts. Sure. So there's, why should you do it? How do you do it? Am I doing it and is it working? Mm-hmm. And each one of those four parts are exclusive, so you can't necessarily have.
You know, know how to do something just by knowing about more about why it's important.
Mm-hmm.
Right? You can't over fit your efforts just into one of those buckets. Yeah. That each one of them is unique. Sure. And the reason this came up for me. And when you were talking is that if you think about like the, the first bucket there, why should I do it?
Yeah. It's, that is around belief. Like, do you believe this idea? Mm-hmm. Is it worth spending some time?
Yeah.
Now then there is the, you know, how do I do it? That's sometimes with health that's more complicated. Sometimes it's really easy. Sure, sure, sure. But like imagine, let's say the I, the topic is around.
Food and then you're now having to like, how do I cook this? Mm-hmm. And make sure that I'm getting it in my life. Yeah. Am I doing it as great, like for feedback? Yeah. So there's like two levels of feedback here, and that's like the quantified self can help like ORs ring, uh, trackers if you're asleep, like what's actually happening.
Yeah.
But that last part is, is it working? That's where you can. Personal faith in that
concept.
Sure. You're like, okay. Yeah. So I believed that the science was interesting. I tried it out. I monitored that I was doing it, but now I've seen that it's working. Mm. And is that, that really that fourth step where you now are like it's a part of you?
Yes. I love that
when you experience it and you're like, you know what, I got three week, three good weeks of sleep, and I feel amazing. Okay. I believe sleep matters, you know?
I love that. It's
different than intellectual, it's experiential.
Yeah, absolutely. Biology of belief right there.
Yeah. Yeah.
Beautiful.
Okay, so then the third question would be, what might we visually see on your nightstand or in your environment?
Yes. So I have a lamp that has, um, since I mostly have that lamp on at night, then it is a. Almost red light. It's very amber toned and dim. Mm-hmm. Um, so that's one thing, and I have a glass of water.
Perfect. Uh, we've seen a theme with the better people are sleeping often, the more minimal the nightstand seems to be. Mm. We've still had some people that are like, well, I'm still struggling with my sleep and I've got 47 things on there. So. You know, seems to equate.
It's funny, like the, the glass of water for me is like my whoopi, you know, it's like I just need it there.
Yeah.
Then I can fall asleep. Yes. If I can't, if I'm about to fall asleep and realize that I don't have my glass of water, but my side, I'll get up and go downstairs and get one. Oh my gosh. A bit. Just because the idea of waking up and needing a, a quick zip. You know, yes, I have to have it. Yes. I
love that.
How often
do I do that? Never. Never, but rarely. But just the know, the
knowledge that it's there. Yeah, exactly. Okay. And the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest change to the management of your sleep?
Yes, good question. I think that, I mean, I, I, I, I thought about this.
I would have to say that the earplugs and the eye mask. Mm-hmm. Because I've stuck with it for. Decades
now. It's like Pavlovian or something. It's, yeah, there they go. It's time for sleep. Yeah,
so that's true too. Mm. That. We have rituals. Mm-hmm. So you, you will watch animals like dogs circle around their bed.
Yeah.
Um, part of that, the thinking is that they're letting off body heat and the adjustment in body temperature is important for initiating sleep. Mm. But it's also a ritual, like doing these things. There's something that we do and it's like your mind is entering into this vortex to, to allow the sleep process to happen.
So undoubtedly the process of putting in my earplugs and putting on my eye mask. Is a signal that it's time to go to bed.
Yeah.
And so, yeah, I think it has benefits beyond light blocking and sound blocking. Totally there. There, there's like a ritualistic aspect to it too.
I love that. Okay. That's fantastic.
And the simplicity and it's really pretty accessible to most people bringing in something like that. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. That's great.
You know, 'cause you, like you could say something like more sexy or newer, but Yeah, no, that's what I've been doing the longest. Yeah,
exactly. Yeah. And bringing that consistency and portability.
'cause then I'm sure on your flight and travels and whatever, to be able to have that ritual is probably gotta be grounding and nice. Yes. Without the grounding sheet. Right, exactly. Okay, so, so many things, and I still have so many other questions and I'm. Pulling them back. So my final question is how can people follow you, learn more to take your advice to, you know, kind of get curious in this thing we do a third of our lives on average, 26 years spend to sleep.
And yet many people don't have a lot of knowledge on it or, or might be struggling. And do you have a lot of answers and resources for them, so where can they go?
Yeah. So quality of life.com Yeah. Is where I'm doing a lot of work writing on the blog. Doing, um, doing podcasts. Great. We have the Collective Insight podcast, which is on pause right now.
Okay. Um, just because I'm new to the company, we think we're reconsidering our entire educational strategy, which is great. So I'm, I'm driving that process and, you know, how do we help the most with, mm-hmm. A limited amount of time. Yeah. Uh, so that's, but that's where a lot of the work will be happening. We still have our, uh, Saturday newsletter@humanos.me.
Yes. Love that. And that's also where I'll be announcing, um, any updates on the book. Mm.
Yay. So, okay, great. We can follow.
Story there too.
Okay. So checking out both of those and definitely get on that newsletter too, to stay abreast of all those things that could be coming. And that's very exciting. Yeah.
Amazing. And any other closing thoughts for you? Sleep. NAD. Beyond,
I would say, going back to this idea that getting good at help sleep is a skill. Yes. Help is a skill. Yes. Skills develop with investments in learning and trying so. Keep listening to Molly's podcast. Aw,
well, right back at you. And I'm excited to follow the development of the podcast and educational and kind of platform that you're putting together with Walia and beyond.
So,
yeah. Yeah.
But thank you.
I, and I'd love to chat again there, like Yes, there's more to talk about. Yes.
Please. Cool. Okay, fantastic. Ah, well thank you so much for taking the time and we'll get you to your flight hopefully with ample time. Okay? Yes. Thank
you, Molly, for having me on.
Thank you. You've been listening to The Sleep As A Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep.
Skills to the next level. Every Monday I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun fact, I've never missed a Monday for over five years and counting, and it contains everything that you need to know in the fascinating world of sleep.
Head on over to Sleep as a skill.com/newsletter to sign up.