Dr. Raleigh Duncan is widely recognized for his expertise in infrared therapy and is one of the most significant contributors to technologies that support healing the human body. He is a Board-Certified Doctor of Chiropractic and founded Clearlight over 28 years ago—now a global leader in infrared saunas and innovative wellness solutions. He is considered one of the early pioneers in infrared sauna technology, holding multiple patents and patents-pending for Clearlight’s signature innovations. His work includes developing the patented Carbon/Ceramic infrared heaters and Clearlight’s True Wave™ far infrared and full-spectrum heaters, known for deeper infrared penetration and industry-leading low EMF/ELF levels. Dr. Duncan has a long history of serving the wellness and fitness industries, designing systems and health products from concept to manufacturing with a strong focus on safety, quality, and consumer care.
Dr. Raleigh Duncan is widely recognized for his expertise in infrared therapy and is one of the most significant contributors to technologies that support healing the human body. He is a Board-Certified Doctor of Chiropractic and founded Clearlight over 28 years ago—now a global leader in infrared saunas and innovative wellness solutions.
He is considered one of the early pioneers in infrared sauna technology, holding multiple patents and patents-pending for Clearlight’s signature innovations. His work includes developing the patented Carbon/Ceramic infrared heaters and Clearlight’s True Wave™ far infrared and full-spectrum heaters, known for deeper infrared penetration and industry-leading low EMF/ELF levels.
Dr. Duncan has a long history of serving the wellness and fitness industries, designing systems and health products from concept to manufacturing with a strong focus on safety, quality, and consumer care.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 The Ancient rituals behind modern hot–cold therapy
😴 How saunas + therapy improve emotional outcomes
😴 How infrared therapy impacts inflammation + mood
😴 Why cold plunges feel easier after sauna
😴 How hot baths support nightly wind-down
😴 Why sauna timing depends on nervous system
😴 Stacking healing modalities inside your sauna
😴 Keeping your phone away improves sleep
😴 What does Dr. Duncan’s personal sleep setup looks like and what can we learn from it?
😴 How contrast therapy strengthens the body
😴 If you’re considering investing in a Clearlight Sauna, Dr. Duncan shares an exclusive Sleep Is A Skill offer, the code SLEEPSKILL is valid for 15% off an order on shop.infraredsauna.com and users can save $600 - $1000 on their sauna on infraredsauna.com through Dec. 1
SPONSORS:
🧠 If You “Can’t Turn Your Brain Off” At Night…try a quality magnesium supplement that addresses ALL the necessary forms of magnesium that you need to support calming your nervous system and sleeping deeply. https://magbreakthrough.com/sleepisaskill
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DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world. Thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today.
To transform your circadian health and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome to the Sleep Is Skill podcast. There are very few episodes where we bring a guest back twice, which tells you everything you need to know about today's conversation. Dr. Raliegh Duncan, one of the true pioneers in infrared therapy, is joining us again, and yes, he's literally recording this episode from inside his light sauna.
He's bringing the heat in every sense of the word as we dive deeper into this. Science strategy and real world application of heat and cold for better sleep, resilience and overall health. Dr. Duncan is the founder of ClearLight Saunas and one of the most influential innovators in infrared therapy over the last three decades, a board certified doctor of chiropractic health and former engineer.
He has designed and patented many of the industry's leading technologies. Including clear light's, carbon ceramic, infrared heaters, and true wave infrared systems recognized globally for their deeper penetration, low E-M-F-E-L-F, output and therapeutic benefits. Today, ClearLight is a worldwide leader in infrared saunas, red light therapy, and complementary wellness devices.
In today's episode, we explore the science and practicality of contrast. Therapy, how heat and cold affect your nervous system and Dr. Duncan's best strategies for jet lag recovery, the connection between hypothermia and mental health and why some people thrive with sauna right before bed, while others need a longer wind down window.
If you've ever wandered how to use heat, cold breath, or travel routines to optimize your. Sleep. This one is packed. And for you and if you are considering investing in ClearLight saunas, Dr. Duncan shares an exclusive sleep is a skill offer. So be sure to check the show notes for further details. And just note that the code sleep skill is valid for a very short time.
15% off your order@shop.infraredsauna.com and users can save 600. Thousand dollars on their Asana as well through December 1st. But check the show notes for the latest details. Now we're gonna jump right into the episode, but first, a few words from our sponsors. If you're listening to this podcast, you're likely looking to improve your sleep, and one of the first questions people ask me about sleep is what supplement they can take.
One supplement I've consistently taken for ages is magnesium, specifically by optimizers Magnesium breakthrough. It's an all natural supplement that helps reduce fatigue, improve sleep quality, and promote peaceful rest. It also strengthens muscles and improves heart and brain function. Most magnesium supplements aren't full spectrum, but magnesium breakthrough contains an optimal ratio of all.
Seven essential types of magnesium. Now imagine having the strength and energy to get outta bed every morning, face the day boldly, and maintain that energy throughout the day and into the night. If you wanna give it a try, go to buy optimizers.com/sleep is a skill and use the code. Sleep is a skill to get gifts with your purchase, and this is a limited time offer, but I think you'll be pleasantly surprised by the results.
Welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. There are very few episodes where we have a return guest, and yet today is a special day 'cause we have a return guest and that means that we, we had, we could not squeeze all of the juice out of the first one. So really grateful. Dr. Duncan, thank you so much for taking the time to be here.
Hi. Good to be here.
Yeah, absolutely. So, you know, and you're actually joining us. For anyone that's just listening, you happen to literally be in your ClearLight sauna right now. So, yes. So thank you for showing up for the occasion, bringing the heat. It's fantastic. You know, so for anyone listening in the first episode, you know, we.
Way back. We went deep into how you got into this, and so certainly people can hear more about that if you have anything urgent to share there. But beyond that, I think there's a few things that we wanted to dive into that we didn't get into on the last episode. So one was just some of these call ups around certain things that we're seeing with sleep and heat.
Contrast therapies, things that we didn't really dive into before time change. I know both you and I have been traveling, so lemme know if any of those really jump out at you that you could see make a difference for people.
Yeah. The sleep when we travel, you know, when you get your whole circadian rhythm, um, knocked out.
Uh, that's a really interesting topic and as you know, you were just, what's a time difference? Was something between you and, uh, Hawaii and
Yeah, but four hours usually, I guess it's usually around five, but just because of the time change and so the time change was in the midst of the travel too, so that was even confusing as well.
Yes. So there's definitely, uh, some things to shift.
Yeah. And the contrast therapy's always good to touch on going from hot to cold and what happens physiologically and why you would want. Why you would wanna do that. It's not for the faint of heart, but there are some tips to make it, uh, not so onerous.
Well, this is very top of mind for me personally 'cause I literally have a cold plunge. So. Great. Yeah. So gonna be adding that in with the clear light sauna. Yeah. So, yeah, let us know what are the things we need to know about that? What works? It's so funny, I just had someone over and they're like, so what's the deal with the back and forth?
Just which one goes first? Mm-hmm. How long? Yeah. What do you see there?
Yeah, so let's, you want to just jump in and, and start there? Yeah. Um, so I've got a cold plunge also, and I've got the sa. So I've been experimenting a lot over, I've had it for a few years of what works and what doesn't. And so spoiler alert, if anyone's just jumped into a cold plunge, just say, oh, I'm gonna just do it.
It's, um, it's, it's uh, it'll stop your breath. Alright. It really will to get that, that just shot of cold water. Now you can set it obviously.
Yeah. Um,
but what I found is that when I take the sauna. Beforehand, get in one of my infrared saunas and I really heat up. Then, uh, take a quick shower and, and then jump in the cold plunge.
The heat is still in my body
from
the sauna, and so it, it, it. It tempers that jumping in the cold plunge. So that's my newfound, not really newfound. I've been doing a couple years. Yeah. But that's the routine I really like. And, and there's um, there's something to be said in your physiology to take it from one extreme to the other.
It's like flexing a muscle.
Absolutely.
Sure. Uh, it, it's, it's making, it's building resilience in your body. That's how I like to think about contrast therapy, about going hot to cold, hot to cold, and then you can go back. If you have time, you can go back in the sauna. So you can do different rounds of this, and it's building resilience, it's opening your pores and then closing your pores.
It's opening vaso the heat, vasodilates your blood vessels, and then it's closing them back down and your heart rate, you know, all this stuff is happening and it's building resilience, and that's what we want in our bodies.
Yes. Oh, I love that. So is that something that you've found for yourself over this past couple years of testing this out?
At least having one round of that when you're bringing in some of that C therapy? Sometimes more. Uh, yeah. Sure. Okay. Well,
and it's, it's an old, you know, people have been doing that this for years. You know, going from the sauna, uh, in Finland out into, you know, chopping ice in a lake and jumping in or in the ocean, this type of thing.
So it isn't anything new. But with the cold plunge and the availability of all those, I mean, before I would just, a lot of times just. Jump in a cold shower.
Mm. It was
more from, I don't know, you know, when Wim Hof was really popular.
Yes. And
doing that big advocate of cold plunge and, uh, just do a shower so that can also, if you don't have a cold plunge, have a, a similar effect.
Mm.
Hot and cold. It will wake you up too.
It will wake you up. Exactly. Now people might be wondering, well, why would we wanna do something that wakes us up for our sleep? Anything that you've seen for that? Yeah, the connection.
Yeah. I don't try it at night just because it wakes me up so fully.
Yeah. At
nighttime I am just get, I just get in my sauna and then it, it just starts to bring me down in that heat and kind of lulls me into, into that.
And then I used to go to a place, uh, har Hot Springs above, uh, Calistoga, and they would have hot and cold. They had a hot pool, and then they'd have a cold plunge. So even I was in the sauna business, but uh, the cold plunge wasn't around. So I would do rounds of that.
Hmm.
So it's an old thing that, that, uh, people have been doing for maybe even millennia.
I don't know. You know?
Yeah, absolutely. Oh my gosh. We're bringing it back. And then to your point, even if someone's like, well, I don't have a cold plunger, or what have you, then we can still get that cold shower in to make a difference there. And what you said about Wim h or do you recommend bringing in kind of specific breathing or breath work with this contrast therapy?
Well, that's a little above my pay grade. I think that's right. I've dabbled in it. The one thing I know is you don't wanna be doing breathing in, uh, in water. Mm. Actually some people, I think one, one person died doing that because they lost consciousness or something. So
if you're, they like intense breathing, like that kind of very like fast breath.
Sure. Yeah.
That kind of stuff. And so you have to be very careful and you can could combine that, but do your breathing on land.
Yeah. Okay. Got it.
And we're not amphibious, or at least most of us are
not. So, yes, exactly. And particularly that like, um, very intense because, you know, Wim Hof would get, would be known for that extreme.
Right. So very activating and so if someone's already stressed out or whatever, and then adding that. Yeah. So good call. Yeah. So
this is a, a er version of that I guess.
Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Okay, fantastic. And so have you also seen some of the benefits for people with their sleep by bringing in some of the cold and the heat?
I know we touched on that a little bit in the first podcast, but anything else to say there?
Yeah. I, I think it it anything you can do to get your, um, your whole system to, to function at a higher level. Yeah. To, you're boosting your metabolism in that way and then bringing it down, uh, a healthier you is, uh, more, uh, more aligned with good sleep.
Hmm. Yes. If, and
if you're kind of loose and flexible and your muscles aren't tight and, and your inner psyche. It's not tight. You know that body mind thing.
Yes.
Um, that's probably kept more people up, uh, not sleeping than, than just the body. So,
yes. Ugh. I'm so wise and I know that was one of the big benefits that we were speaking to on the first episode around that kind of parasympathetic response with the sauna, certainly, and how much that could be supportive of our nervous system and then these that could help sleep.
And, and it's a little tricky because when you go in the sauna and you get the vasodilation and your blood pressure drops and the heart sees that, you know the receptors and they go, oh my gosh, we've got a pump. Uh, you're actually going to a sympathetic
Sure. Um.
Phase in that where your heart rate goes up and everything.
Yeah. But the end result of that is then you go down into parasympathetic and you're, you're relaxed, your muscles feel good, your mm-hmm. Your mind is cleared and, um, it, it just has that wonderful effect. You, you know, you're releasing dopamine and all these, uh, feel good chemicals in your body. I don't know.
We didn't, I don't know if we talked about that. Before, but
yeah. Well I think it's always worth hitting on. Certainly. 'cause it can be confusing 'cause people might think, oh, I gotta just baby myself in order to sleep well. Like, you know, just do these very light, gentle things. But, um, you're pointing to some of the benefits of that kind of stretch so that we can have, build that resiliency and support our health and wellbeing.
I wouldn't try to do the contrast, the hot, cold before sleep. Normally the way I work, 'cause a lot of times I'll wake up, I'm, so it's more that, that tone of Sure. Of keeping yourself healthy and fit and uh, keeping, keeping your body functioning in a high level. That's really what we want. 'cause that's, yeah.
That increases our longevity, our health span, how we feel, and uh, how we, uh, relate with ourselves and the world. Hmm. That's isn't, that's the object, right?
Yes. I love that. Very cool. Okay. And now I know you also mentioned too that you have been traveling a ton on a little bit more that. Uh, how we manage that, how we manage that with travel jet lag.
I believe on the last episode you mentioned how, where possible when you can get the sauna in when you're traveling to try to do that. Yeah. Let me know what you see there.
So I found that, let's say I'm traveling, I, I'm in Asia a lot and land in Asia. My time schedule's all messed up. Sure. So if they're, and I try to stay at hotels where their saunas, some even have infrared saunas, and I found that if I can take a sauna, it helps me to reset that clock.
So maybe it normally will take a few days. You know, two or three days. The first day's usually the worst, but there's something about the heat therapy sauna in particular that just, um, helps me to, to jump to that next spot without having to suffer. Mm
mm
Just resets the body somehow. I'm not, I'm not sure of exactly what the physiology is.
You know, it relaxes you. So you come into a new country, you've been on a plane for 12 hours or whatever. You're in a new time zone. It should be light, but it's dark and your body is, there's a disorientation. So there's something in the sauna in that heating of the body and the blood coursing through that goes beyond.
All that.
Mm. That is,
I, I look at it like a, a reset button and it seemed, it doesn't solve everything, but it does seem to have quite a bit.
Yeah, absolutely. Okay. That's, and it's so interesting too 'cause I just got off a client call with one client who was saying he feels like he's really sensitive to kind of any changes whether cold plunge, sauna, et cetera.
He was mentioning how in the evening he's still trying to understand how much time he needs to buffer to before like he goes into the sauna. And for him, sometimes it will take him longer than some people to be able to kind of wind down after. Have you seen like a range with some people like, uh, I think it was Peter Attia famously talking about brushing his teeth before getting in the sauna so that he can literally be done with the sauna and then like go into bed.
No.
Yeah, I'm like that. I, I just, I'm a, a, a a limp, uh, wash rag after the sauna. Just Yeah. Yeah. Take a shower. Tuck me, tuck me in bed. Yeah. It's all finding your routine. Okay.
That
works for you. I'm kind of, when you said that I was reminded early, early on, we were dealing with dealing, uh, people with multiple, multiple chemical sensitivities, and they were so sick.
With the chemicals they had in their body, we could not put them in the sauna with the door closed, uh, without a big reaction. Hmm. And so we, we started with them with the door open.
Oh, interesting. Okay.
We put them in the sauna with the door open. They would sit there for 15, 20 minutes, maybe do a few rounds, and after a couple weeks of that, then we found that we could start to close the door.
Mm-hmm. As their toxin level. The toxicants, uh, became lower. Isn't that interesting? Sure.
That is. So
there's something in the same way of using the sauna before sleep, that you don't wanna overdo it for your particular body, mind, how it functions with heat. Everybody's different. So it's a way to figure that out.
Oh, that's great. Okay. And that's something we've seen too with some of our clients where some people being kind of in that similar camp of being able to do it right before bed and then Yeah, walk right down and find that it is just like a tranquilizer or something. Like they're just so relevant. Yeah.
And then other people needing a bit more of a wind down period to get like the body temperature down, heart rate down. And is that something kind of to your point with when people are dealing with a lot of health issues or other things at play. That, that might bring in maybe a longer range that they wanna plan for.
So maybe a couple hours before bed.
Yeah. A me with a fever or some type of situation is a different me and uh, and all the protocols and things have to have to adjust into that. So, really interesting. You know, as human beings, we have this great variety. But there's so much out there to help us. That's natural and not, uh, habit for me.
Well, maybe sauna's our habit for me.
Yes. And a habit that we look forward to. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. We've been actually playing with, with some of our clients how to build in for some of them that, that want a little bit more of that buffer time to kind of. Let the heart rate come down, body temperature come down.
Mm-hmm. Some of them use it as a bit of a divide, like a mental divide from their workday. Especially 'cause we work so many entrepreneurs and feel like they could keep working and working. So to actually have that environmental forcing function of like, I am off now, and now I'm like shifting over into the evening and relaxation.
Whatever we can do to kinda get that shift to have very clear day mode and very clear night mode. Yeah. Yeah,
and it's the thing like not taking your phone anywhere near your bedroom.
Yeah, exactly. Yeah. The environmental cues.
Yeah. Good. Good cell phone hygiene, you know?
Yeah, exactly. Well, thinking of that, do you have any call outs, anything to share too about like cell phones?
Tech with the sauna or seeing that? Well, I,
I must admit we have a USB charger in our saunas.
Yes.
The thought was not so much of people to be sitting there on their phone, but a lot of people have music. Yeah. And that we have a little, I can show you, we have a little place here that, uh, opens up and you, so you could put your phone in here, the USB chargers there, and then you could play music up to the speakers.
And then have, uh, Bluetooth. So it was more of a relaxing thing. That's why we put it in, not so people would be on their phone getting tweaked.
Yeah. I love it. That's great. I know, and that's the thing, oh my gosh, I am the queen of like audible or podcast or whatever, so you know, we can have it going in the background.
Yeah.
I don't think I would finish my audibles if I didn't have that time in the
in the trunk.
You know, it's the best time. Exactly. That's the only time I end up staying longer than I normally than would therapeutically, so.
Totally, a hundred percent. Wow, that's so good. And then we also had spoken to just any additional kind of sleep tips that you see, you know, as it relates to all the things that you're doing with ClearLight.
All the initiative to help support people. Anything else there that we didn't address that could be supportive for people with their sleep?
Yeah, I'm kind of experimenting with different, uh, gummies, not CBD or anything. Yeah. But there's different gummies that, uh, are out there. Um. Yeah, just, you know, see if that will help some of the, for sleep or long, I sleep really well.
Yeah, but
I, I'm still in this wake up thing.
Yeah, sure. Um, wake
up at 3:00 AM I guess it's my age. And, um, so then I'm finding that if I go to sleep earlier. In the night, nine o'clock, which sounds so soon.
Yeah.
That then I even, I can get six hours or so and then Sure. Wake up and get work done. So I don't know if, if that's ever something you've ran, run into and discussed.
Yeah. On your show, I'm sure. Oh my gosh.
All the time. Yeah. What's so powerful about Wake Up? 'cause it's actually one of the most common reasons that people look into, at least from the work that we do, to make a difference with their wake up. 'cause they're frustrated by the how many wake-ups they're having.
And the maybe bad news, but also good news is that there are so many reasons for wake-ups. I recently did a video of the 22 Reasons For My God. Oh my gosh, no. And that was not exhaustive. That was just like some That was, yeah, yeah, exactly. It's like nuts. But yeah, there's so many possible reasons. One, just even to rattle off a couple of the big ones that might show up commonly, so we might often see sleep disorders.
There's over a hundred sleep wake disorders. I see. And many people are running around undiagnosed. Some of the most common being some form of respiratory based sleep disorders, so whether sleep apnea, upper airway, resistance syndrome. There might be things going on with like bruxism. There might, you know, grinding.
We might see movement disruptions, periodic limb movement disorders, restless leg. The list can keep going for different. Sleep disorders in and of themselves. So we often have, everyone we work with get tested even if they've been tested before, because one, the criteria has shifted as far as how to read some of these sleep results from the sleep test.
Mm-hmm. And then two, they're dynamic. So even as we age or if we gain a little weight or hormones shift, or the musculature of the face changes or you know, all of it can bring about sleep disorders where there were no sleep disorders. So all of those can be a very common one. One of the next big ones is around glucose, and that might be interesting too, any things that you're seeing with sauna and glucose management.
But we are seeing certainly even numbers wise, like uh, aura. Recently, I think it was somewhere in the, uh, domain of around 75 million they just put down to partner with Dexcom so that they. Right.
Yeah,
yeah, yeah. They're
broadening out. I, I, I've got one of side. Yeah, sure.
Exactly. Yeah. 'cause then we're seeing you, you throw on the steelo and you don't need a prescription anymore with those.
And so you can very quickly order those, get those in day or two, throw that on the back of your arm, and then you can overlay that data with your sleep data and then see how commonly we're waking up as a result of spikes or crashes. So that's very common. But also hormonal shifts. Also hor mitochondrial health, changing in sleep.
Wake scheduling, certainly stress load, anxiety, depression, lack of purpose. Then we'll also see that there can be things going on with people's supplements, prescriptions, you know, the list is endless. So yeah,
it's a litmus of, of how are you doing? You know, isn't it?
It is. Exactly. And that's one of the beautiful things.
I think I was just saying this to another client that I feel like I hit the jackpot on the topic of sleep because so many people have like, aren't you done? Are you bored talking about sleep? I'm like, never. Because it connects to everything in life. So
no, and the science is meeting us too, and advancing, you know?
And our understanding is growing with that.
Yes.
So it's very new. It's a very new thing. Even though we've been sleeping for many millennia,
I guess. Or
millions.
Totally. Exactly. And also to your point around the youth of this science, how, how it's really in its infancy. One, there's a great book called Mapping the Darkness that just came out recently and it's looking at the kind of history of sleep as the area of.
Study. And so it's really fascinating kind of understanding some of the changes and even changes since the industrial revolution where we saw tons of issues with sleep where there really were no issues with sleep, not to that degree beforehand. Really exploding as we went indoors and as we started kind of becoming these indoor creatures and the changes that came there.
So that gets a nice landscape for people. But then even on things like what you said about the 3:00 AM wake up. Commonly when we start getting into the three ams and four ams, for many of us we're shifting over into REM during that period. So rapid eye movement and that. Yeah. And so, and during rem, one of the things that we see is that that could be a flare up of certain disorders too.
For instance, my husband gives me permission to share about his REM dominant sleep apnea. And that's a common thing where we see, wow,
I never heard of that.
Yeah, it's really interesting where, um, often if people are having difficulty breathing throughout the course of the night, just a couple of these apneas, even if it's, some people say, oh, I have mild sleep apnea, so I'm not treating it, and it's like mild sleep apnea that can still be, say, 12, 13 times an hour, where you're choking essentially throughout the course of the night.
So I've really encouraged people to look at this. We often see it flare up during rem and so, oh, is that
because you're. In, in the REM sleep, you're doing something and maybe you're moving, you're more active. Yes. You're more active. Is this what happens?
Exactly. You're more active if you have EG on during rem, it looks as if, like if you didn't know that that person was asleep, if you're in another room, you might be like, oh, that's a alive and active brain.
'cause it looks. Just like an awake state. Lights up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. 'cause you're like watching your movies of your, your dreams and whatever. So your whole physiology is shifting. So your breathing is often changing and your body temperature's starting to go up to, you know, it's lots of theories on. Why is that?
Because we're kind of preparing ourselves for the day ahead. You know, what's at play there? Certainly that dreaming is tending to take place. And so then the way we're breathing, more of a sympathetic tone coming up and changing how many times we're dealing with those breathing disruptions or even bruxism or you know,
grinding.
Grinding mouth breathing, so we might have trouble with, you know, deviated septum, our ability to breathe through our nose. So there's many reasons. So I'm so glad you mentioned that 3:00 AM piece. So any other call outs too around the sleep tips as it relates to the. Wake up or sauna or anything that you're doing with ClearLight?
Nothing I can think of. I, I just, the thought came, maybe I should get in my sauna at 3:00 AM and see what happens, you know? Yeah.
Just so experimentation. Oh my goodness. Experimentation.
I haven't done that. Yeah. Usually. Yeah. I'm very productive when I get up. 'cause usually what? It's just like that coming off a REM thing.
I can see that. And then I'm awake, I'm really awake, so I'm work. So yeah, I try not to get upset about it.
I'm so glad you said that. Not get upset about it because one thing that's been interesting, we had a sleep anthropologist on the podcast a few years ago, and it's about to come out with a really fascinating book on this topic of, from an ancestral perspective and hunter gatherer perspective of how we manage our sleep.
And one thing that we would find as through different periods of our lives, that as we get older too, there's certain theories that we'd shift our value to our tribe in different ways. So like when we're in our twenties or what have you, that would be our Warrior days, and we would be able to kind of.
Fend off and save the, the group, whereas we'd get into later seasons of life, then we might have more frequent wake up, but that lighter wake cycle, so the opportunity to be awake more, uh, left us with the ability to alert the tribe more, to kind of listen for any sort of danger or things that might be at play.
So it was a new way to be of value for our tribe and group. So that's one theory, you know, so, wow. Yeah,
but to not get upset about it, no. Maybe at 3:00 AM I have to put out the clarion call or something, you know?
That's exactly.
Wild dog in the backyard or
something. Yes, totally. Yeah. 'cause we do find that when people start making it wrong that they are having those right.
Then it's all over, then it's like, right. Not worth. So I love that very wise. So good. Okay. So, and then I know you also have a holiday kind of aspect to what's going on with ClearLight. Is that right? That you've got some things going on?
Yeah. Until the end of November. If, uh, people that are listening to you, uh, if they will mention your name, will give them a thousand dollars off.
Amazing. Amazing. So good. Okay, well, we'll be sure to include all that information too in the show notes. Yeah. So love
that. Thousand Off and East Sauna.
Oh my gosh. Okay. Be, let's get on the end
of November.
Okay. So good.
Special.
Okay, that's great.
We'll call it the, the Molly effect.
The Molly effect Pure ecstasy in more ways than one.
Love that. Oh God, it's so great. Okay, so we'll, we'll outline all that and certainly from a holiday perspective, I can't think of more things that could be beneficial for. Overall health and wellbeing and the amount of studies that keep coming in for, yes, the vote of competence or the difference that something like this could make in your overall health and wellbeing, and then certainly supportive of sleep.
One of the things that I always think is really so fascinating is this hypothermia versus hyperthermia and how this hyperthermia and some of the evidence around for mental health and around Patrick, yes, has done some great work right there, or at least getting the information out around hyperthermia and depression and yes.
Anxiety, any call outs there.
Yeah, it's been very interesting to look at the studies for cognitive behavior therapy along with sauna usage. So much more effective. Yeah, so it may have to, you know, I could posit all kinds of things, but if you're allowed to let your body come back into a more relaxed state where you're not in fight or flight.
Then it makes sense that some types of different therapies are gonna be more effective. They're gonna pierce our shell, you'll be able to take them in and use them. So it, it, um, yeah, the, the research that has grown over the past two decades has just been mind blowing and it keeps, it's more like a pace like this.
And I don't, I don't expect that that will change. Well, funding is going down too, but, we'll, that's not a forever thing, I hope.
Oh, I hope so too. Oh my gosh. Yeah. I mean, and that was so interesting too, some of what I've seen in some of the research around this hypothermia of different ways that people can get heat in, in, in, you know, before maybe if, if people didn't have access to saunas, maybe a hot bath, hot shower, hot yoga, et cetera.
But certainly sauna having some of just very clear results for people of just even that lowering of that brain inflammation, that brain based inflammation. Right?
Yeah. And inflammation is such a key. Yeah. To uh, uh, you know, a plethora of problems. So if we can do something to bring inflammation down, and I think just about everybody's got some amount of that in our society.
Totally.
It's, it's endemic. It seems to be.
Yeah, absolutely. Ugh. So exciting to have some of these different ways of accessing this to make such a difference in your health. And I know too, historically, every person that we brought on the podcast, we've asked a few questions around how you're managing your own sleep.
And I know we did that before, but I think we can even. Find some additional gems in there, maybe even with travel and some things that might be at play that we didn't get to hit on the first time. But before we do that, anything else that we didn't hit on or that we missed before we jump in there?
Nothing that's, uh, barking at the door.
Okay. Great. I love, I love that terminology. That's fantastic. Okay, good. So our first question would be, what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? And especially in the midst of all this, you've been internationally and all kinds of spots, so what might we see?
Yeah. So I, I like taking, uh, the sauna. Yeah. Uh, obviously at least three nights a week. Uh, I still like taking hot baths.
Sure. And I
find that that's a good segue. Um, I'm experimenting with all kinds of just different natural kind of gummies that are for sleep and this and that, and kind of making little charts.
Um, I've also started doing some meditation at night. Normally I would meditate in the morning, but I find even if it's just 10 minutes at night will bring my, sort of, make that line in between the busy life world, you know, all that, and, uh, move into that. Period of sleep. And then I've been really, um, uh, staunch about leaving my phone downstairs, plugged in, in the kitchen.
Otherwise it's uh, there's hell to pay. So.
Exactly right. There's
always something I can find interesting on there.
Oh yeah. All things in the universe, basically on there. All
things in the universe at my fingertips is just a little too seductive.
A hundred percent. Yes. Exactly. Good. Well, I'm glad. I appreciate when people call that out, just the allure for all of us.
So we don't, you know, it's a constant thing to be aware of and it. So love that. Anything different or anything that you do in particular when you find yourself in different hotel rooms or, you know, just different. Yeah,
yeah. That's such a, so many different things. Uh, and again, I'll usually, uh, many times have a, you know, a time change or different I, I, and after travel I need, um, even if it's my bedtime, I need time in between the travel
Yes.
And
sleep. I just can't relax for some reason. Yeah. Even with, yeah. Hot shower or any of that. So I'm, I, I haven't come up with a list of things to try. I just sort of tough it out and, uh, so that's, that's still challenging.
So I love that you said that, 'cause I was just talking to another client around how important it is to even build in that buffer time for all of us, even the most stress-free people if, if that even exists.
Even if there's nothing really crazy going on, even just kind of being in a conversation beforehand. Just figure it out in the world. Then coming back home, we see that there's, or to our hotel, there's this, you know, period, almost like it's been referred to as a runway with, you know, flight where you need enough of a runway to shift that active brain.
Even just a brain that was getting from point A to point B or what have you was active. Then to be able to get that, to turn down a bit, to transition to what it's aiming to do, which is to get to that deep rich delta sleep, that's the big change for it to get to. So I am so glad you mentioned that because so many people assume that they should be able to just go from on to off.
I'm not, I'm, it was a refractory period and I've got a, I have to, uh, honor that and acknowledge it, that's all.
Oh, totally. There's a great book that is called The Power of the Downstate, and it's one of the few books, it's actually out of a researcher, I believe she'd done quite a lot of work at UCLA, so she brings it a lot of information around HRV and sleep, which we don't always.
People doing from a research perspective and in depth, and it's exactly about the refractory period is kind of the thesis of the need to, everything that goes up must come down. That's a good way to look at it. Right? And honoring that. Another thing that we do see, I'm looking at it right now. Here, I'll grab it.
It's the Somnia. Have you heard of the Somnia? Yeah. Yeah, you use that? Yeah. Yeah. Oh, okay. Well then, yeah, don't even need to come. That's an interesting one. Or things of that nature that, and no affiliation or anything, but some of these different things that some people are looking at. Could we help support, still need that wind down time, but could that be supportive potentially, and further winding down to, have you found any difference with any of those sort of initiatives?
Yeah, I,
I found so works, uh uh, pretty well. You know, um, because it's working on the cranial nerves and, and all that, so, yeah.
Yeah, and it's funny too, you know, I work with a ton of high stakes poker players and so often they might be coming home in the midst of tournaments, right? And they are like, they might, they're
wound up.
They're wound up,
wound up. I mean, beyond even just, you know, the environment of casinos that are designed on purpose to confuse the circadian rhythm with no windows, you know, no clocks, tons of blue light, they're already environmentally jacked up. But then they also are often. Spinning with either regret on certain moves they made or like they're up millions, right.
For in some cases
I can't, I can't imagine that, but uh, it's a lot. I don't have to imagine that. That sounds like a lot to chew on. It's a lot. Now you gotta go to sleep 'cause I've gotta tournament at eight or something.
Yeah, exactly. Right, because you gotta get up and do it again for maybe like 12 hours or whatever.
'cause you know, they go so long. It's crazy. So yeah, for all of us, different ways that we can respect that refractory period, so that's beautiful. Anything else we missed in your evening routine?
No, I, I think that's pretty much it. Beautiful. And so much is just the, my attitude. Yeah. You know, the attitude I bring to bed is, uh,
okay.
That's great. I love that. That's kind of the whole story, you know, like it's interesting. Sleep. A lot of, when it starts to go in the domain of a problem is when someone's deemed it a problem, you know? And so yeah, once they've started to say, well this is not right, I want perfect eight hours, blah, blah, blah.
That's the problem.
Yeah. Not a time to rage at the machine, so,
exactly, exactly. It's just gonna make the problem worth Definitely that Chinese finger trap analogy harder. Yeah. You try to escape the, the tighter you're stuck. Okay. So what might we see in your morning sleep routine with the idea that how we start our day could impact or sleep?
So,
getting up, I, I've started to try something, um, where they said I've read something, they talked about, um. Don't jump onto your phone.
Yeah. In
the morning, you know, just don't do it. Yeah. Give yourself, so what I've been trying to do is give myself five minutes upon waking, not even opening my eye, my eyes, but just lying there.
Mm. And moving this side, move that side. Yes.
With
my legs back and forth, and then opened my eyes. And I'm so used to going into my day, what do I have to do? I'm going to hit the ground running.
Mm. And
just give myself that five minutes to really wake up. Don't look at the phone, the phone's downstairs. So that took care of that part.
So
beautiful. And then
move into my day slowly. And I found that some. Yeah, that's when I remember to do it. It bears fruit when I don't. It's just like another day. So.
Totally. That's very well said. Yeah. It's a cool time that we see this kind of sleep inertia. So when we wake up, there's sort of this stickiness, leftover of this transition of this a.
State to an awake state, it appears to be an important time where we might be able to just kind of influence our thinking differently for the rest of the day ahead. So very wise. That's great. Perfect. Okay. And then what might we visually see in your space, like on your nightstand or in your environment?
So I have a, an old, uh, SoFi. Do you know that?
Yeah, sure. Yeah. They don't
make that anymore. And there's a, a, a light and, uh, I've got a little bowl with stuff. Might be change or whatever it is for the day. And, uh, probably a book. I'm not sure. I don't think I'm in the middle of anything right now, but I try and keep it clean.
If it gets cluttered up, I'll clean it up so I like have an uncluttered side table.
So. We've seen that to be kind of a through line on this show with so many people answering what their nightstands look like. Yeah. It's often the people that have like 18 different things are still kind of struggling with their sleep, you know?
Yeah. Well, mine's
pretty small, so if I get cluttered, stuff is gonna start falling off. Well, and there's a, there'll be a coaster there.
Oh, of course. To dehydrated the
water or something.
Yes.
I be pretty sparse right now, so
I love that. Okay. Fantastic. Anything else in the environment that's been important to you or just kind of
Well, I, I do have a, a, a cold uh, pad.
I sleep with one of those.
Yeah. And that
helps me, uh, make it through the night. 'cause bef I can, I am one of those people that can heat up a lot. Oh, sure. So that helps. So that's under the sheets and, um, yeah, that's, that's pretty much it. Uh, I sleep with open windows all the time. I like that.
Sure. Great. I love that.
And getting that kind of temperature aspect of things can make such a difference for people with their sleep. Yeah. Um, and just your results too, if you're tracking your heart rate, your HRV varied temperature base too. That's great. Yeah. And
so I can, you know, test my HRV and look at things and look at the night before I, maybe I obsess with that a little too much.
Sure, sure, sure. Yeah. Yeah. We see that definitely for so many of us, and that's one thing that, oh my gosh, I really, really, really am hopeful for the future of wearables that we'll be able to play with different ways that we can take in this data. Because if I, my dream would be to be able to have all this information come in.
But that we get to dispense it. So say for instance, if I'm working with clients that I can have all the data come my way and that with them, they only see it every, you know, couple weeks or what have you. So they see the trends, but not the no Debo effect, you know, that day to day. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Right.
'cause the day-to-day is not important, is the trend, really.
Exactly. Yeah. But it makes sense. What like, and we do have research to support that when people are told that they didn't sleep well, that they perform worse, even if they slept on. And so if you say, oh wow, right. Yes, there's, it's really interesting.
So there is a big mental component there. So how can we have it all if we are gonna be tracking and sometimes to abstain from the tracking if we're going through a stressful period, if we're having a lot of anxiety or what have you, can it make sense to have a little data vacation? And so one of the things that we see with the data.
How can we play with not being too messed with based on the results and to know that it is meant to go up and go down all, or especially something like HRV Heart rate variability, which has variability right in the title, you know, so
yeah, that, yeah, it tells you what it's,
yeah, exactly. Yeah, exactly. Yes.
And I do find people being surprised when they learn some of the average numbers for HRV and what other people are getting. That's been a helpful thing. It
can be all across the board. It depends on where your baseline is to start with. That's what I've found.
Exactly. 'cause, and to clarify that too, if anyone's listening a couple things, is that one, we want to really just get our own baseline, like you said, and then from our own baseline, then figure out, oh, okay, if I'm deviating, plus or minus, you know, kind of what information can I glean from that?
How can I support overall trends? Then separately, what I've seen is when people are stressing because they're comparing. Seeing, oh, well this Olympian or whatever is averaging a hundred and something and I'm only at whatever they are, or twenties. Right. And so one thing that's interesting is like, whoop aura, many of the trackers you can search and find out what the averages are.
And oftentimes people are surprised to see that they are more in the normal range. Yes. That might have imagined, you know. So just
one more thing to worry about, you know? Exactly. Just gotta chill. Right?
Chill uhhuh. Exactly. Okay, so the last question would be so far to date now, I know we asked you this before, but any things to expand on so far to date?
What would you say has made the biggest change to your sleep? Or set another way? Biggest aha moment in managing your sleep. I
think the the biggest aha moment for me to actually be able to measure. 'cause that's the metric. Who's to tune what's happening not in any individual evening, but over a period of time.
Otherwise, how do you know it works? You could say, how did I sleep? I have no idea. Sure.
Yeah.
So that's the little scientist in me.
Yeah.
So I have to temper that with being obsessed. I think that's it.
Oh, believe me, uh, that was, we are cut from the same cloth. 'cause that was actually, I think that's why we do, yeah, exactly, exactly.
Literally my newsletter for over seven years, I've said it every Monday, I never miss a Monday, has always been called sleep obsessions. Right. So that's tendency to obsess Thank to see you
and, uh, be on. And, uh,
yes. Exactly from,
from the depths of sleep. Some more.
A hundred percent, yes. Well, any kind of closing thoughts too on if people are, they've been on the fence and now considering maybe investing in getting Asuna or any of the other products over at ClearLight?
Anything for them to Yeah. Well
we we're, we're branching out and we also, um. What we call complimentary. We might have talked about this before, kind of layering effect once you're in the sauna. Then we have the, the assault therapy. So my whole idea, we have the red light therapy. My whole idea is once you're in the sauna, you're investing your 20, 30, 40 minutes.
What other therapies can you be? Uh, having come into your body and healing you at the same time? Sure. So that's really, uh, we're the only ones that are doing this and, um, everything has to work within the environment of the sauna. So it's been challenging, but it works well. You just get more bounce out of your precious time.
Yeah. Yeah. I just wanna underscore, 'cause I've been so grateful to be able to have the unit that you have just, it's beautiful. And to be able to have the red light therapy right there. Mm-hmm. To have this, the salt, the essential, always, the whole thing really just makes it such a treat to be in there and feel very spa-like, and like an experience, like an event in your day.
Yeah, that's it. It's a, it's a thing that you're pulling in all these modalities. 'cause we really want take you to the next level if we can.
Yeah. Oh, so good. Well, so in closing, I really want the listener to understand that there's power to the bringing some of that strategic stress to the body. I know we talked about colds.
Talked about heat, all these different things that the strategic stressors while in the immediacy might not look that sympathetic. It's gonna help support that ability to access that parasympathetic and support, to your point, like almost resiliency training to know ourselves, right? So really wonderful points that you made today and on the last episode.
So if anyone missed that first one, can always check that out. For additional, you know, we went in deep on both, so just so appreciate you taking the time.
My pleasure. Always great to see you and get to get a chance to hang out.
Yes, exactly. Well, more to come. Maybe we'll be able to have a live podcast in the future, so to stay soon.
Take care. Ciao. Thank you so much. You've been listening to this. Sleep is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet. Fun Facts.
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