Daniel White Daniel White is a Registered Nutritionist, Functional Medicine Health Coach, and Applied Quantum Biology Practitioner specializing in sleep, circadian biology, and behavior change. After struggling with poor health, autoimmune symptoms, and severe sleep deprivation in his early years, he transformed his life through circadian and light-based approaches. Over the past decade, he has educated and coached thousands globally, working with institutions and organizations such as Boston Consulting Group, PwC, Deloitte, and Credit Suisse. His mission is to help people realign with natural rhythms for better health and performance. Jai Kapoor Jai Kapoor is a senior executive in AI and tech, having helped scale companies like Wayve AI and Revolut. He has raised over $1.3 billion from investors including Microsoft, SoftBank, and NVIDIA. His journey into circadian health began after developing severe autoimmune psoriasis, which resolved after applying circadian principles. Jai now focuses on advancing awareness of light and human biology. He is co-founder of In Rhythm and author of The Story of Light. In Rhythm In Rhythm focuses on aligning human biology with natural environmental rhythms. Through products, infrastructure, and education, they help improve sleep and overall health. Their flagship product, the Better Sleep Bulb, is a flicker-free LED designed to mimic natural light cycles and support circadian function.
😴 Dan shared why light exposure influences sleep quality
😴 Jai explained what you need to know about Circadian rhythm & sleep
😴 Why sleep struggles persist despite optimal habits
😴 How sunlight benefits support restorative sleep outcomes
😴 Why blue light disrupts evening cognitive readiness
😴 How red light promotes physiological relaxation responses
😴 Why modern lifestyle misaligns biological sleep rhythms
😴 How light signal regulates internal biological timing
😴 Why hormone timing determines sleep and recovery quality
😴 How morning sunlight enhances daytime alertness levels
😴 Why sleep environment impacts nervous system regulation
😴 How indoor lighting compromises circadian sleep alignment
😴 How circadian infrastructure enables scalable health optimization
😴 Why better lighting may enhance sleep and performance
😴 And many more
GUEST LINKS:
Daniel White
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/danielwhitehealth/
Substack - https://substack.com/@danielwhitehealth
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/danielwhitehealth/
Jai Kapoor
LinkedIn - https://www.linkedin.com/in/jai-kapoor-748564a7/
Substack - https://substack.com/@thestoryoflight
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/thestoryoflight_official
In Rhythm
Website - https://www.inrhythm.earth/
Better Sleep Bulb - https://www.inrhythm.earth/bettersleepbulb
Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/inrhythm.earth
DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Mollie: [00:00:00] Welcome to the Sleep As a Skill podcast. My name is Molly Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep as A Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week I'll be interviewing world-class experts, ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health, and by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before.
Welcome to the Sleep Is [00:01:00] Skilled Podcast, where we help you optimize your sleep so you can truly show up for your life. If you've been struggling with falling asleep, staying asleep, or waking up or fresh, this episode might shift how you see one of the most overlooked factors light. Today I am joined by Daniel White and Jay Kapo, co-founders of In Rhythm.
Daniel is a registered nutritionist and quantum biology practitioner, and Jay is a senior executive in AI and tech who scaled multiple billion dollar companies, both found their way into this work through powerful personal health transformations, and now they're on a mission to bring humans back into rhythm with nature.
In this conversation, we connect the dots between lights, circadian rhythms, and sleep, and how our modern indoor lifestyles may be quietly disrupting all three. You'll walk away with simple insights that can make a real difference in your sleep and energy. And if you've been doing all the right things but still not sleeping well, this is your invitation to look at what might be missing.
I'll [00:02:00] drop the link to the in rhythm bulb in the show notes. It's one I personally use and I actually really do love it. Tune in and see what shifts for you and if this resonates, share it with someone who needs it. And welcome to The Sleep As a Skill podcast. I am very thankful to be joined by two fantastic individuals that are coming from the exact kind of opposite ends of the globe and joining us in, uh, some, you know, decently late hours.
And considering they're very thoughtful around circadian health, this is, I know a big deal. So it means a lot to me, and I know you all will get a lot of value out of this conversation. So Jay and Daniel, thank you so much for taking the time.
Dan: Thank you so much, Molly. And you know, sometimes needs must, when the mission has to be, uh, taken forward, you've gotta make a couple of sacrifices here and there.
Mollie: Yes, exactly. Exactly. And then maybe for anyone I was sharing with Jay that we're just slowly starting to put more video content on YouTube and all the [00:03:00] things. So in the event that anyone's like, what is happening? Are these people like really loving this red hue? If you can just share a little bit about this red aesthetic and why both of you have chosen this.
And I would if I were you on this timeline as well.
Dan: Yeah. So I've got a number, a number of lights around me right now. Um, all of which are red. So they're devoid of blue light and they're all quite dim, so low in luminance or lux so that once we hang the call up today, once we finish the podcast, I should, fingers crossed, be able to get to sleep quite easily as opposed to, uh, if my screens and my lights around me weren't so circadian friendly.
Should we call it?
Mollie: Yes, absolutely. And same for you Jay. Same kind of disbursement of lights.
Jai: Absolutely. Yeah. We're approaching 10:00 PM here, so nice and dark in the on, on the Thai island. Um, also using, you know, dim, dim red lights and a filter on, on my screen. So hopefully, uh, dreamland is not so far away once we finish this call.
Mollie: I like that. Fantastic. Okay, [00:04:00] so lots of things to get into in today's conversation, but first, maybe a bit about how the two of you came to join forces to really make a difference in this kind of circadian quantum space.
Dan: Absolutely. Um, so I'll, I'll kick that off 'cause my story story started a little bit earlier than Jay's Sure.
Um, to kind of give you the, the TLDR as they say these days. Mm-hmm. I was very unhealthy as a teenager. Um, suffered really terribly at the hands of circadian rhythm disruption and that's because I was one of the first kids that I knew of my generation, you going back almost 20 years now, who is spending a lot of time video gaming.
So I was in front of screens all night. As a result, I was sleeping terribly, you know, not enough sleep. Poor, poor quality, sleep, knock on impact on my metabolism, my mental health, my immune system. I was suffering from autoimmune problems. I was very overweight, anxious, depressed at times, like even suicidal.
I was, I was really quite messed up as a teenager. Um, unfortunately got on, on the health train quite early, 17 or 18 years old. You know, did a variety of degrees, psychology, [00:05:00] nutrition, all of these different things, beginning to put together kind of pieces of the holistic health puzzle, if you like. But it wasn't until I was about.
20, 24, 25 years old that I actually discovered, uh, kind of went full circle and, and really found out a lot more about circadian biology and sleep science generally. So I became very passionate about it about eight or nine years ago now. Um, since then I've done a variety of, of things, um, in, in communities and, you know, uh, working with people all over the world from running schools, projects where we were looking at, you know, circadian health tools and interventions for kids and teenagers and, you know, we published some, some non non-academic white papers around some of the amazing research that we did through my charity.
And then, um, also taking part, and I know that you were a part of this molly at some stage and supported it, um, uh, a kind of philanthropic education program that we launched a few years ago called the Circadian Rhythm Disruption Challenge or the CRD Challenge. So, great. Yeah. And that was a, you know, a great opportunity for us to spend spread, you know, simple circadian education out all [00:06:00] over the world, and, and we were really successful in that.
And then kind of. Post CRD challenge, I was left wanting more, I guess, wanting more opportunities to make more impact, uh, around the world through, you know, education, through products, through spreading this message, which had been so fundamental to my life. And that's when I met the wonderful Jay.
Mollie: Okay. Yes.
Jay, kick it off. How about you?
Jai: Yeah, I mean, look, Dan and I, uh, have pretty different backgrounds and journeys into this, uh, beautiful realm of circadian science. Yeah. But I'm super grateful we've ended up in the same place.
Mollie: Mm.
Jai: So, um, my story actually starts pretty young, even though I didn't realize that.
I think early on I developed a sense of self-worth that was very tied to material achievements, academic success in school and university, the high flying jobs, initially, investment banking, and then, you know, high growth ai. And I was sort of just. Really living on this adrenaline lifestyle, which was so addictive and so delicious at the time when you're in it, but you really don't, you know, you really don't [00:07:00] understand the, the impact it's having on your body.
And, um, most recently, for five years, I was financial director or an AI startup based in London called Wave. And maybe we'll come on to talk about, um, uh, how, how and why that's, you know, given us a particularly unique, uh, lens of the circadian space. Sure. Um, and I was in charge there of all things related to capital raising, fundraising, deploying that capital across the business.
So in my time there, raised over $1.3 billion worth of capital from investors like Microsoft, um, SoftBank, and uh, Nvidia. So really reaching the highest highs. Um, and then. My health gave out. Right. And I developed, um, very southern, very aggressive autoimmune psoriasis. So super common autoimmune skin condition.
Yes. But I had it horrifically badly. Dan can attest to that. I had it every square inch of my body couldn't sleep through the night because autoimmune psoriasis flares up very badly at night. I would wake up completely on [00:08:00] fire, blood pillow because of how much itching was happening in the night. Um, eventually had to make a ton of lifestyle changes or prior to that actually went down the all route, as many of us do.
I'm
Mollie: sure.
Jai: Yeah. There you are in a doctor's office telling that, you know, they're telling you that you've got autoimmune psoriasis and they're sort of shrugging their shoulders and saying, sorry, we don't really have much for you, but steroids and immunosuppressants.
Mollie: Yes. Just to quickly share, that was part of my story was scalp psoriasis when I was younger too.
Mm-hmm. And also going through that whole period of, okay, here's the topical, here's the this, here's the that, and the deleterious effects of that, and just really not getting at all the root. So I'm so sorry that you had to navigate that, but I'm, I'm grateful that it's brought you here. Okay. Keep going.
Jai: Likewise. And the scalp psoriasis is one of the hardest to, to get rid of while layering tar and salicylic acid on your head
Mollie: free thing.
Jai: Yeah, wondering is this, is this really, is this really what it's come to? Yeah. Um, [00:09:00] mm-hmm. So, um, then, then went down the alternative routes, including no dietary restrictions, gave up gluten, dairy, and egg for more than in a year.
Ayurveda, Chinese medicine, craniosacral osteopathy, meditation, you name it, Molly. I tried it. Nothing really lasted. Um, and then on a, on a fateful Novembers, uh, Eve a couple of years ago now, or 2024, um, I meet Dan. Dan. Dan first tells me that he works in quantum biology.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: Biology, which at the time I think is a made up term.
Mollie: Yes, sure.
Jai: Because, uh, I was always been a science hobbyist. And that term itself is sort of paradoxical, right? Yeah. Yes. Coherent and biological systems that really seem to go together. Um, and then I see Dan. Doing a lot of weird stuff. Dan's going outside and taking his glasses off and looking at the sky, and I'm thinking, this guy is.
I don't know what he's on, but something, something [00:10:00] crazy.
Mollie: Yeah.
Jai: But anyway, curiosity gets the better of me. We, we, we speak a bit more. Dan sends me down the rabbit hole. I learn all about circadian science, psychology. I have this aha moment that I really think this is gonna work.
Mollie: Yeah.
Jai: Um, I put the, the actions into practice, took myself to a hot country and six weeks later I had almost no psoriasis left at all.
Mollie: Are you kidding me? I love that. I love that. And Dan, look at you changing lives and it is just such a beautiful demonstration. Sorry, I didn't mean to cut you off, but I just was so happy to hear that kind of triumph and, and not surprised one bit. 'cause these are the things that we get to see. And that was part of my story too.
So continue. So you got to experience just this transformation and freedom.
Dan: Yeah. And I would, I would like to just jump in there and say it was a problematic transformation. I mean, I had psoriasis my own, you clearly, oh, look at all of us. Yes, we worked with people that have had it, but Jay had it, you know?
Mm-hmm. Maybe we can send some photos over at [00:11:00] some point, because it is,
Mollie: yes.
Dan: Really shocking to see the transformation that he went through in such a short period of time.
Mollie: Uh, so happy to hear that. Wow.
Jai: Yeah. It was, um, it was a shocking transformation. You know, six weeks, uh, I'd say 80% of the symptoms disappeared.
Probably took another three months for that. Sure. Sort of remaining 20% to go away. Absolutely. Then another three months for the psychological hold to let go, which they didn't tell you about that. Yeah.
Mollie: Surprise.
Jai: Yeah. But look, as the healing was, was becoming evidence, I got back in touch with Dan and said, there's something amazing here that the world needs to know about.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: Um, and during this healing, even prior to the healing journey, I'm out there at, at wits end making deals with the universe. If you, if you help me, I will spend the rest of my life. Telling everybody else what the secret is. Oh. And so, uh, I got back in touch with Dan and I said, we gotta keep, I gotta keep my side of the bargain.
So let's go and tell the world about this amazing, amazing science.
Mollie: Oh, okay. There's so many directions we could go, [00:12:00] but just one quick thing to double tap on. It's so interesting. This has been a connector for me as well, with psoriasis at my root as well. And so. When you see that there's even more of this mainstream approach to skin health, when we talk about things like psoriasis, that light has seemingly been somewhat accepted as an approach.
So I'm just curious, and you know, maybe this is out of the scope and of course we'll be bringing it to sleep and more clearly in just a moment. But it is very connected, very connected to sleep. But I'm just wondering your thoughts on kind of this paradox where psoriasis is one where we can all kind of get behind that seemingly light is impactful and yet it doesn't seem to one trickle out into the rest of a lot of these conversations around dermatology and skin.
And two, I should say that even though we can find things about psoriasis and [00:13:00] sunlight and light therapies, it's not always probably, as you saw Jay, the first thing that's being doled out. It's kind of like a, oh, and there's this. So I'm just wondering, any of your thoughts, any musings on what's going on there?
Jai: Yeah, there's, there's a look, there's a lot to unpick there. Um, you are, you're completely right, like so with, with psoriasis. It's well established in, in clinical medicine, allopathic medicine, that psoriasis is a photo sensitive condition. It will respond to sunlight and UV light.
Dan: Sure.
Jai: So eventually, once, once you've rejected the steroids and the immunosuppressants, they, they will prescribe you phototherapy, right?
Dan: Yeah.
Jai: But in that same breath, you asked them, hold on. I thought you told me that UV light was bad for me. Right. Yet you've now, you've now told me to go and sit in a box five times a week and get irradiated with UV light. So. How, how, how, how are you reconciling those two things? And the truth is, I've never had a good answer from a dermatologist.
Yeah,
Mollie: same. Okay. Just curious if you had heard anything different than what I'd heard. Alright.
Jai: No, [00:14:00] I've never, I've never met a, a classical dermo who's, who's actually given, given a, uh, an answer that I actually, actually like, you know, believed basically. Yeah. From that. And, and, and, you know, to an extent, I, I sympathize with them because they are, you know, most closely operating under this paradigm of sunlight is the devil.
And, you know, UV lights is absolutely, you know, not supposed to be on your skin at all. And we are all exposed to that and mainstream media. But of course, dermatologists being sort of, you know, born and raised and trained within that system itself, like I can understand why. Yes. They're sort of conditioned to think, to think that way.
Uh, and I think that's one of the reasons why it hasn't really trickled out to other, other skin conditions. But you can't ignore it in psoriasis because it is so obvious. So. Well I think what's, what's really cool in this space is that, um. It is, we are starting to see light-based interventions for skin conditions, just not UV light.
Right? We're seeing a lot of red and infrared light now coming into the fray. And [00:15:00] um, that's great to see, but I think people often don't appreciate how significant it is that that is actually happening because
Mollie: yeah,
Jai: we've a hundred years in a AER medical PAL paradigm that has built and sold biochemical interventions and biochemical interventions only yet suddenly there's been quite a rapid emergence in FDA clearance of electromagnetic interventions with, with, with red and infrared light.
And I don't wanna gloss over that 'cause that's, that's a really significant shift in how people are starting to think about medicine and medical interventions and, and I really hope that continues to trickle out to, to, to other conditions too.
Dan: And even, even beyond that really, you know, like the Scientific American this year, the June, 2025 edition, it's like the sunshine cool bang straight in the middle of the article.
You've got like Andrew Huberman and, you know, high profile scientists sharing the fact that sunlight boosts the immune system and it is like the leading new disease fighting therapy. Um, so yeah, they absolutely can't be ignored at this point. And you get people such as Richard Weller, you know, really famous dermatologist up in, I think Edinburgh or Glasgow in, in the north [00:16:00] mm-hmm.
Who's working with, um, you know, some of the, of the top, uh, quantum biologists in the world now, you know, um, like the, the Guy Foundation for example, if people haven't heard of that, and they're really starting to bring this science to the forefront. So it's an exciting time.
Mollie: Yes. And in case we have anyone listening, that one is confused.
Like, wait, I thought this was a sleep podcast. Why are we talking about skin? What's, we'll, we'll connect in just a minute. It's very, very connected. And then also if we have anyone who is getting up in arms and saying, well, this is dangerous, this is irresponsible, this is this, this is that. We also want to, or I wanna put in that.
Like all things. So sunlight is very much like, it has drug-like effects. So we're very thoughtful on the dosing and the administration of this. So coming at it. So there's an opportunity anyway to both create what we often refer to as more of the solar callus and kind of be thoughtful in easing ourselves in and preparing [00:17:00] ourselves to be able to take in such a shift.
I mean, I'm sure Jay, for you, it was like kind of this transition for a period of time of going from maybe not as much sunlight exposure to all this sunlight exposure.
Jai: I couldn't be with them.
Mollie: You couldn't,
Jai: couldn't be in the sun when, when the skin was that bad. No, my, my, uh, my cousin was getting married in Mexico, so I was out in Mexico, and I'll never forget this because I was there with my sisters and they're sitting in the sun and I have to sit under an umbrella because my skin is so hypersensitive, I cannot actually even be in strong sunlight.
Um, but then, but then of course you train your, the colors with morning light, the red, the infrared, and now I can, you know, I can be out in the sun.
Mollie: Yeah, I think that, I mean, we could take. All this PO podcast on the nuances of light, and if anyone wants to go in deeper too, we certainly have additional episodes that people can go more deeply in, and certainly the both of you have tons of information as well.
And so just putting that in, because I think sometimes it's, people listen. I'm like, well, easy for you all to say, [00:18:00] but I've had. Full body burns and I'm not doing that, and da da da da. And you know, I think we've just gotten so disconnected from the rhythms of nature and how to dose ourselves thoughtfully and mindfully.
And there's been, certainly in the United States, a bit of throwing the baby out with the bath water is when people will hear sometimes, oh, okay, the sunlight cure. And then they hear Andrew Huberman, and as of right now he's been grouped in with this bro science and what have you, which is, anyway, a whole longer, I'm getting all political.
I clearly, it's too early for me, too late for you all. So
Dan: maybe one thing that is worth saying to kinda round the conversation off, like, you know, skin type is very important, right? Yeah. So that's something that we haven't mentioned. You know, your Fitzpatrick skin type, your kind of, uh, the, the origin of your ancestry, you know, Jay's family from closer to India.
Mine from closer to like Ireland, Scotland. So like we have different tolerances when it, when it comes to, you know, sunlight. So these are also things that, that we need to consider.
Mollie: Yeah, and I put all this out there just [00:19:00] because I have witnessed, especially in recent years, kind of this, Nope, that's false.
And there's no one likes to hear the nuance of topics. Like this is a big topic. And so if this is newer to certain people, hopefully, uh, would like to inspire the interest to go in deeper and learn how this could be supportive for surprising disorders of maybe the skin, but also we'll start to transition to sleep and to struggles with sleep.
So maybe sharing a little bit about how the heck do we bridge this topic of light and your ability to sleep well at night.
Jai: Yeah. Happy to, happy to, to take that one. So I think what I found useful to, to set the stage with is a lot of people ask the question. Why is light important, right? Mm-hmm. Because we've lived under the paradigm where no doctor is going to tell you that light is important, right?
At this present point in time, most doctors will not tell you that because they've not been trained in in that way.
Mollie: Yeah. Yeah.
Jai: So the [00:20:00] first question you get is, why light? Really light, light seems so, so insignificant? Why would it be important to health? But this is really, really from an evolutionary perspective, right?
Because over hundreds of millions of years of evolution, evolution builds itself around those pillars that are most consistent in the environment. Because consistency is the foundation for evolution to actually develop the most consistent rhythm on earth is the rhythm between light and dark. At least that's the one that you know, that that's experienced on earth.
And so it, it makes sense that evolution would use this to base itself around why else would it do this? There are certain properties of light and meanings that you can derive from light. Firstly. For a given area, given territory, given space, light will emerge at the same time for everyone, right? Mm-hmm.
So in, in this sense, light acts as this sort of first cause, because the, the, the first thing that will happen is, you know, the, the sun will rise, light will fill your territory, [00:21:00] and then your animals will get up and you start, you know, doing all those things right? It's very much the signal of, um, of the start of the day.
So it's light can always be compared to information, right? Because light carries information. And so you have this, you have this thing that, that, you know, kind of rapidly spreads everywhere, provides, uh, a timing cue and timing information for all organisms. And really the organisms that, uh, survived and proliferated through evolution were the ones that could become predictive, okay?
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: So, animals, human bodies, we are both predictive and adaptive, which means that we both adapt. We, you know, we are, our bodies will change in advance. Things and also retrospectively to deal with things, but prediction is much more efficient, right? Mm-hmm. Because if you're always reacting, you're not, you're not gonna be as fit.
Whereas if you're predicting things that are gonna happen, then you start to fare a lot better. And you can see this happen in the body because your cortisol level will [00:22:00] rise before you wake up. Your melatonin level will rise, particularly for sleep before you actually go to sleep. Your digestion will also start.
Increasing in activity before you actually eat. So this predictive, leaning into this predictive power was very, very important for animals. And light was the cue that allowed you to know the time of day in order for these predictive things to stop. So that's, that's why light is important.
Mollie: Yeah.
Jai: Role does it actually have in the body, and what is the circadian rhythm?
Right. The circadian rhythm is the, um, or circadian rhythms, I should say plural. These are the broadly 24 hour cycles that all life on earth relies on to survive. The human body has a plethora, you know, millions of different processes, all of which happen in cyclical fashion. Right. They don't happen linearly, and they're not happening all the time.
They have an inherent rhythmicity and cyclicality, depending on what that process actually is. Okay. So in the context of [00:23:00] sleep, um, a very important cycle is the rhythm between cortisol and melatonin that we've already talked about.
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: Cortisol will rise in the morning to get you up. Melatonin will rise in the evening to put you to sleep, but your body is not producing both of those all the time.
There is, there is a cyclicality and a rhythmicity through which that happens. Okay. And fundamentally, the body acts as a closed loop, closed loop, biological control system. What does that mean? Right? It, it, it effectively means that the body is a self-sustaining and fulfilling system that takes in inputs con, um, processes them, runs them through a control mechanism, generates some kind of internal action, and then some kind of feedback loop.
Okay. Um, and so. The, the most important thing to understand is that light is the primary source of time. Mm-hmm. For okay. And in giving the body a sense of [00:24:00] time, it allows that master clock in your brain to be the primary coordinator of all of these different processes in your body so that they're happening in sync with each other.
Okay. And so light itself, you know, the, the, the SCN is not directly managing. It's physiological process, but it is the timing coordination layer that allows all of those processes to be synchronized. And that synchronization is super important for health and it's super important for sleep because you want your body to be in that predictive sleep mode.
You want all of your, um, daily processes to be running at the right time so that your sleep process can get activated at the right time. You get lots of melatonin production and you go off into a very deep and restful sleep.
Mollie: Yes. Love that. Anything to add there, Daniel, or do you think we covered that, made that bridge?
Dan: Just say like, you have two sides of the coin. Right? So [00:25:00] Jay's talking very much from an evolutionary perspective of like light and dark and you know, you could dive into talking about the specific qualities of sunlight throughout the day and how those have other physiological effects on the body beyond just timing, for example.
So, you know, discussing like UV light and infrared light, maybe we don't need to go into those right now in detail, but we might pick them up a little bit later. But then you also have the other side of the coin, which is like the modern environment in which we now live, right?
Mollie: Yeah.
Dan: And how at odds that is with the evolutionary expectations of these systems when it comes to light.
And, you know, the disturbance that causes us from a, like, circadian rhythm, misty perspective, from like a nervous system system regulation perspective, from like a, an oxidative stress and damage to like cells and mitochondria perspective. So there's many, like different, different ways to, to skin this cat.
But you know, it's quite simple. I mean, to understand that, you know, nature. You know, essentially expects certain like cues at certain times of the day and when we begin to mismatch or, you know, fire different information into that system, yes, there are gonna be different responses and outcomes and, and one of the [00:26:00] largest of those is, you know, disruptions to our sleep and increases in stress and, and nervous system activation, which we know is so intimately interlinked with our ability to get to sleep, stay, to stay asleep throughout the night.
The quality of our Western recovery, you know, how we feel when we wake up in the day. All of these things that are very deeply interlinked.
Mollie: Oh, I'm so glad you brought us there because I think that could be a great introduction to the mission that kind of got got created once you two got connected. And then Jay experienced this, like literally full body transformation and then you kind of decided to join forces to make a difference in this space.
And I'm curious if you can help kind of share what you saw that was missing of how things are currently. Thought of when we think about stay and spending most of our days indoors, which is what most people on the globe are doing, and what isn't working right now, and what you saw, what the two of you saw as a way to make a difference there.
Dan: Yeah. I think I, I'll start off for a second and I'll just say that I think it's really [00:27:00] interesting to, to look at the, the sleep science and the circadian science right now because there's a lot of like. Um, arguments happening over small research projects looking at, you know, specific interventions, blue light amounts of blue light, luxe, intensity of light, different subject populations and, and all of these sorts of things.
Um, and then you start to discuss, you know, like consumer products. So is it, you know, are you red using red bulbs or amber bulbs or incandescent bulbs, or are you even changing, you know, to a circadian friendly bulb? Shouldn't you just be like lowering the light source and making it dimmer instead? Isn't that enough?
Some research tells us that, but I think, you know, fundamentally we're missing out and I'm sure Jay will, will pick up this, um, this thread and run with it. We're missing on this idea of like, you know, if we make that choice, like put it in the hands of the consumer, we miss a, a very big opportunity, which is to like impact, you know, entire.
Systems, entire societies around the globe on a systemic level through considering, you know, [00:28:00] light as like fundamental infrastructure and like reestablishing, you know, rhythm and coherence like across the entire planet. You know, in simple ways that we now really understand because the science is, you know, really well, well crafted.
We've had, you know, 20, 30 years of, of quite spectacular science and, you know, researchers, I'm thinking of people these days, you know, like Glen Jeffries and, and people like that. There's more and more, uh, intricate and nuanced information coming about out about light every single day. Um, but, you know, are big, big shifts happening societally around that information?
I'm, I'm not sure that they are yet.
Mollie: Mm-hmm. So true. Absolutely.
Jai: Yeah, so look, the, the fundamental problem in preventative and lifestyle medicine is one of behavior change, right? Yeah. It's the, it's a human problem. Every, most people in the world know that you've got to eat healthy, right? The problem there is not one of information.
The, the problem there is [00:29:00] one of enforcement, which is basically behavior change. People are just. Inherently bad at, at, at eating well, right? Yes. It's not an information problem. Um, and you know, we found the, the same thing within the circadian space, right? I can outline to someone even, and you know, we, we, we ran a case study trial with, um, 13 people with, with severe cases of psoriasis.
And we took them through a six week, um, circadian protocol. And even, um, you know, some of those people who have severe pathological conditions that are very linked to circadian rhythm and like even some of those people weren't making the changes even when we were handholding them through it. Mm-hmm.
Okay.
Mollie: Yeah.
Jai: So this showed us a lot. It showed us a lot 'cause we were here delivering really the highest touch possible service. You can, you know, in a research setting Sure. Where you expect a hundred percent adherence and, and, and still people won. And so. It made us rethink the problem a bit. And, and the first part was that we, we realized we needed to meet people where they were not where we wanted them to be.
[00:30:00] Right. And fundamentally where people are is they live their lives indoors 90% of the time in offices, in homes, in school, whatever it might be, they're indoors. And the truth is, we might, we might get on podcasts and social media and tell you to go outside and get your light. Fundamentally, people are busy.
They've got kids. Yeah. They've got family, they've got responsibilities they might live in, they might live in the uk like, like we did right this time of year where there's little light and it's actually freezing outside. Right? Yeah. You gotta meet people where they are. And that's why we started, uh, we turned our attention to, to indoor environments.
But then the next kind of, um, probably the most material, um, change in how we think about things is what Dan alluded to, is that. It struck us that circadian lighting and circadian environments have been thought about as consumer products. Okay. And circadian health has been put in this same bucket as other health interventions.
Dan: Mm-hmm.
Jai: Like diet or like, [00:31:00] you know, supplements or whatever it might be. But when you really understand how this circadian rhythm works and you really understand the systems and control analogy that I outlined earlier, actually it behaves like infrastructure. It's upstream, it's not downstream. Okay. And so putting, putting it in the same bucket as, as supplements or other types of things, which, which are valuable, right.
That every, everything has this place in this multifaceted, you know, kind of hierarchy of health. But when you see circadian rhythms as upstream infrastructure, they become the tide that lifts all boats. Okay. And this is where sometimes people will partake in downstream interventions, like dietary restrictions, and they don't lose weight, right?
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: They're doing all the things, but they're not getting the outcomes and suddenly they change the lighting environment and they approach light and suddenly the diet starts working well. Suddenly the supplements start, um, you know, having the effect that they're supposed to have. It's because the [00:32:00] circadian system is infrastructure.
It's upstream, it's not downstream and infrastructure. We really took that and, and ran with it, and we really, we really looked to learn from how the system works and nature itself and, and looked at society and said, hang on, society. When society has a shared environmental stressor, let's take clean water, right?
The developed world, we used to suffer a lot from cholera, dysentery, polio, that kind of thing. We didn't deal with cholera because we made better medicines. Of course, the medicines helped. We dealt with cholera because we built sanitation, right? Because we developed a clear sense of biological right and wrong, right?
You just shouldn't have pathogens in your water. Therefore, we built infrastructure around this bottleneck and that decision is taken out. From the consumer, right? You as a consumer in the developed world, you don't get a choice as to whether your water is run through a filter upstream. You might have a choice in whether you drink it out of a Fiji bottle or the [00:33:00] tap, but fundamentally it's not treated as a consumer product 'cause there is a biological right and wrong with lighting.
We've spent a hundred years thinking about lighting as a consumer product and the innovations of lighting have been around. I want more choice and more personalization, and I want to be able to do this with my lighting and that with my lighting. You don't have that kind of choice when it comes to infrastructure, right?
When it comes to sanitation, when it comes to clean air, these are just things that are quite literally lit, written into regulation, right? And and handled kind of away from you. And so this is really how we're thinking about. Circadian health and indoor environments. And what we're setting out to do and what we're focused on in rhythm is building that next layer of civilizational infrastructure, which is the layer of biologically coherent environments.
Mollie: Couldn't agree more and absolutely needed and can make just such a difference. And it's so interesting 'cause I, I appreciate too that you're sharing about some [00:34:00] of the behavioral change interventions that could come along with these more kind of automatic interventions. So we shift what's happening indoors and we're also educating of dating to get outdoors.
Like there's the yang to the yang and they help support each other. So there is that kind of part of the mission of education and then helping to remove any barriers. To making this an actual lifestyle. 'cause if I'm hearing you correctly, and certainly if I'm aligning it, how I'm thinking of it is that this takes, like that whole loop that you're speaking to, the entire loop involves the bright days and dark nights and the difference that that can make, we've got lots of research just to support this.
This is why it's so interesting to me that it's become controversial and acting like blue light blockers or red light bulbs or what have you are, and I say red light not, I know that's not in alignment with what you're all creating, but just some of these [00:35:00] interventions being like just some sort of either nice to have or downright, um, questioning the.
The effects that that can have. I'm sure you've seen this Daniel, of like some of these things that have been, that are coming out of acting as if these are fringe or what have you, when half the time these interventions, you can get most of these things for under a hundred bucks. Like you can get the bald that you've created, you know, pair of like $20 blue light blockers.
Like none of these are expensive. So I just don't understand what the kind of pushback has been, especially recently. But I need to take my rant somewhere else. But I think you can relate, right?
Dan: I think academia loves a contrarian. At the end of the day,
Mollie: that's
Dan: beautifully said. Um, people like to, you know, speak outside the box and, and get attention for it.
Um, yeah, especially when it comes to like academic research in an area which is quite frankly exploding, right in the amount of circadian and, and light based research has been conducted all over the globe right now. Um, yeah. You know, everybody wants that, their slice of the pie to say something a [00:36:00] little bit different and to, to get attention from it, I think.
Um, and I think what's, what's really interesting is actually, you know, a lot of the arguments. Right now we're over some quite like simple and basic fundamental elements. Things like, you know, melanoptic, lux and, and like blue light and like illuminance in spaces and things like that. Um, you know, what we are looking at in terms of lighting is actually, you know, moving steps closer to, to mimicking what's happening outdoors, which.
Talks about a lot more than just, you know, although it is fundamental, you know, levels of like blue light and, and illuminance in your lighting. There's a lot of research now demonstrating like there are so many other aspects of lighting that we're missing out on from not only a circadian uh, perspective.
And so, you know, one of the reasons I think that j and I are so passionate about this is because it's not only about, um, aligning our rhythms and, and that being an infrastructural like component of improving, you know, the, the kind of efforts you're putting in, in all of the areas of your health and wellbeing.
I often say it's a little bit like, you know, pushing a heavy boulder up a hill if you don't have your circadian rhythm in check. If you're trying to [00:37:00] change your diet and, you know, improve other areas of your health. But the fact is once we start to understand more about, um, the fundamental principles of, of light as information and, and what's missing from our, our lighting indoors, we can actually begin to design types of light.
Uh, which are not only just like, um. Yeah, rhythmic in how they help our, our melatonin cortisol rhythms to operate, but are actually like salutogenic actually bring, bring health benefits. And of course, you know, we're not gonna recreate the natural light spectrum. I mean, I don't know, maybe in a few hundred or a thousand years we have developed some really crazy technology.
But, you know, we are moving steps closer to, to integrating more elements of, you know, the benefits of natural light inside of indoor spaces. And so we're really keen not only on, you know, the, talking about the circadian aspects, but really like pushing the frontier of what's possible, uh, from a human health perspective with these indoor environments.
Because, uh, the fact is, you know, once you're indoor light environment is, is corrected, shall we say, or is optimized, you know?
Mollie: Yeah.
Dan: And making those changes to get outdoors just becomes so much easier. And, [00:38:00] um, I'm so, I'm just so excited to see like where. And already, you know, the, the latest research is, um, probably triggering some people around, you know, um, just basically what we're now beginning to understand about factors such as, you know, flicker in lighting or, or the missing component of infrared light in indoor lighting and, and things like that.
Mollie: Yes. Oh, thank you for saying that. That was beautifully said. Couldn't agree more. And just to kind of pan out for a second, just to underscore, I think the immense need for this is that there's a great book that came out fairly recently called Mapping the Darkness, and it was kind of a whole history, a look at the area of study of sleep as relatively new science in a lot of ways.
I mean, it's fairly young as a science. And so award-winning journalist Kenneth Miller spoke to. What he found in all of his research was that there really wasn't this area of study in. Sleep in any meaningful way until the industrial Revolution when we all started to go indoors and then [00:39:00] suddenly an upswell of insomnia, like events just started occurring.
And there was a very clear timeline that happened there. And so it appears that this light conversation is a very, very fundamental and big one. So I just so appreciate the work that you're all doing to make a difference here. So maybe just a moment about what you have created, what it does do to help support people on this journey.
'cause ultimately, half the time people are showing up to this podcast, they're sleepy or they're cranky, or they're not feeling as good as they could. I mean, so they're just looking for a few things that can help them on that journey. And what might this one be?
Jai: Yeah. I'd love to just, um, frame just before Dan, Dan does such a great job at articulating Absolutely.
Yes. Our product and, and how, and how it is. But something I found useful when speaking to people who struggle, who struggle with sleep is, you know, everybody listening to this podcast can relate to the [00:40:00] experience of, you know, watching one more episode in Netflix and then not being able to go to sleep.
Mollie: Sure.
Jai: Okay. Yes. Or scrolling a little bit more and not being able to go to sleep. Yes, there's stimulation aspects that as well, but there's a big light aspect to that at night. Everybody on this podcast can relate to either waking up in the middle of the night or being awake in the middle of the night, going to the bathroom, turning the light on and waking up more, and then getting back into bed and not being able to go back to sleep.
Right. These are lived daily experiences that all of us have on a regular basis. So there is this intuitive, knowing that light is important for sleep. Right. Super important for sleep. And so, um, this is a central idea of, you know, of, of, of, of how and why, like I impacts sleep as we've been talking about on this, um, on this podcast.
And so what we've created is, um, is our attempt to support people, um, with sleep and with, with these challenges. And, uh, yeah. I'll, I'll hand over to Dan [00:41:00] to, to articulate it.
Dan: Yeah. Thanks Jen. I think, and another thing I'd like to say before we talk about light, because I do believe it's fundamentally important, I've been working in the, you know, sphere of sleep science for the last seven or eight years.
Um, a lot of the education that we provide in our research projects in our schools is not just concerning light, right? And there will be people out there listening to this podcast thinking, well, I've got my light right And it hasn't helped me or my sleep's, you know, improved. But I think fundamentally something that we've learned and something we can probably say the surety, is that, you know, getting you improving your light environment, you know, aligning it more with what's going on outdoors in the natural environment, um, is, is never really gonna harm you.
It's only gonna support you and your health, and if it doesn't turn your sleep around in 24 hours, it might improve your mood, it might boost your energy levels, it might support your skin or your immune system. You know, there's so many factors that we can riff on about how, you know, having a a, an optimized light environment, um, can support people.
So I just wanna kind of make that clear, because even if you're not looking in it from a sleep perspective, but you're looking at it from just like a health optimization perspective, or a mood, or [00:42:00] an energy perspective, this is all super, super relevant.
Mollie: Mm, so true.
Dan: Um, so we, we released a product recently.
It's, it's really our, our V one product. Um, we call it the better sleep bowl at the moment. And when we were kind of designing lighting, we were thinking about it from, from first principles. Okay. So we were thinking about all of the elements that go into designing like an artificial light and it's an LED light, which, uh, you know, some people may say, oh, LEDs aren't LEDs really terrible for you, really bad for you.
You know, aren't they What are causing the epidemic of, of sleep and cicada rhythm disruption? Um, but we like to say, you know, like LED is just like the, the technology behind it. You know, there are lots of parts of the LEG from the way that you construct the driver, for example, and how a light might flicker to the spectral distribution or the colors and the wavelengths that you put in it to the luminance, which is the, the brightness.
Or some people may have heard previously of like the lux, which is a, a measurement of brightness that we use in academic research. So we really dove into like all of these and deeply considered them when we were trying to create, [00:43:00] um, like the most optimal kind of, um. Nature aligned light source is what I would say.
Um, and so at the moment we have the, the better sleep bulb. Now it's got three modes. And, and what I really love about the better sleep bulb is that it's not, um, you know, from, from a, a networking or mode of operation perspective, it's not connected to Bluetooth. You don't need an app, you know, you don't have to be connected to your phone and technology to use it or to shift between different modes.
Yeah, certainly things like that, layers of, of that kind of infrastructure may come in the future. But right now, uh, we don't believe it's, it's necessary. And, and our bulb has three modes. So it has a day mode, an evening mode, and a night mode. And it really differs to a lot of the other circadian LED bulbs out there.
Firstly. Um, and the thing I really wanna touch on is actually color or, or what we, we call in a more scientific term color rendering. So it's actually how you see color and how you appreciate color and how color appears in your world through the use of a certain type of light. And our conventional, kind of [00:44:00] modern LEDs is super cool, white, bright LEDs, you know, TVs, mobile phones, you know, torches, cameras, our hospitals, our supermarket environments, our schools, our bathrooms, our kitchens, our bedrooms are filled up with these kind of energy efficient sources of light.
And they actually. Cause us to actually look quite pale when we, when we look at each other, they cause us to kind of like actually reduce some of like the vivid color that we, we see in life. And so when we designed our light bulbs, we made sure that they were kind of full spectrum, um, in the truest sense, not just visible wavelengths of light, which run all the way through the colors of the rainbow, but also beginning to bring back in the missing element, um, of indoor lighting.
Um, especially in the last kind of 50 or 60 years since, uh, the invention of, of fluorescent and LEDs, which is this infrared component. So at every step we were trying to recreate what's happening outdoors in nature. Now, what's happening outdoors in nature? Well, as the sun moves throughout the sky at every moment of the day, the, uh, kind of spectral properties or the, or the properties of sunlight are changing, right?
[00:45:00] Anybody who's ever watched a sunrise and a sunset will tell you that, you know, you can stare into it. It's beautiful. You're looking at their horizon. It's this beautiful golden amber color. And then if you were to stare, and I don't recommend this by the way, at all, at the light, you know, from the sun in the middle of the day.
Well, this guy's very brute blue. It's very bright, right? So we can already recognize that the sun is not the same at all periods of the day, and neither should our indoor lighting be okay. And so what we wanted to do was to, to develop a light that would shift in an analog fashion throughout the day. So it's as simple as you turn the switch, you know, your light switch on and off quickly, and it'll shift you between the modes of day, evening, and night.
Now, what is it about these modes that make them particularly interesting? So our day mode has enough blue light in it. And enough full spectrum light and enough brightness or illuminance for you to go about, you know, daily activities to be able to see clearly, but without being overstimulated. So there's a lot of like, uh, discussion in the literature right now around like the hormonal [00:46:00] dysregulation that comes from these brighter, higher luxe or higher illuminance lights.
Because in the circadian sphere right now, you know, the key metric that people are going off is an equivalent Melanoptic lux. And so we're saying the brighter the light you can stare into in the morning. This has been a bug bear of mine for years and years and years. You know, the better wake up and, and sit in front of a, a sad lamp, you know, blast yourself with 10,000 locks first thing in the morning.
Well, did Mother Nature blast you with 10,000 locks first thing in the morning? No, she did not. Okay. She crept the level, the intensity, the luminance of light up slowly. She crept the blue content of the light up slowly until you reach midday. When it's peak stimulation, you know, that's when our organism and many other organisms on planet earth are kind of most active and in, you know, separate fashion.
As you move towards sunset, the blue content lowers the luminance or the brightness of the light lowers, and we move towards this golden amber, sunset hue. And then post sunset, of course, is darkness. But the reality is that human beings hunting gatherers for hundreds of thousands of years at this point, have been [00:47:00] using firelight and firelight had particular qualities similar to sunlight.
It contained infrared light. Okay. Infrared light penetrates really, really deeply through the body, into the skin, the muscle, even brain tissue, right? It literally reaches cells. That visible light, which is basically the components of, of most of our common, you know, LEDs and even traditional circadian kind of full spectrum lighting.
It doesn't touch, it doesn't get under cells, you know, so melatonin production, um, you know, helping to balance cortisol, mitochondrial function. This is all the research that's now coming out around this, um, kind of missing wavelengths of infrared. So not only do we want our light to shift dynamically in terms of the color and brightness, so it actually gets dimmer with each setting as you move towards the night setting.
So from day to evening to night, the light gets dimmer to respect that need and, and reduction in illuminance in nature. But we also put the, the infrared back in. Another thing that we considered, and I think this is really built off the principle, uh, [00:48:00] of the idea that, you know, um, we cannot recreate nature's light spectrum.
Okay? And so nature has this like almost perfect balance of all the different wavelengths. We've got shorter wavelengths blue, and you know, we're really now beginning to discover this kind of concept of, of high energy visible light, which is the shortest blue wavelengths. Um, and you know, that's balanced out by this super wide spectrum of infrared that goes from, you know, near infrared to mid-infrared to far infrared.
Well, we can't do that in the modern light source. Okay? So we have to consider, you know, and this is something that we've done at every step, is that how can we make these light sources, you know, illuminate. The environment, provide the signals that we need to regulate our circadian biology, but not cause stress, not cause hormonal dysfunction.
And essentially be hormonally neutral because the same light source shined on a young c child, on a young child, I should say, versus an older adult versus someone who's in a very, you know, fit state of [00:49:00] health in maybe their middle years is completely different. Okay. Younger children. And it's been demonstrated for any of the circadian or sleep scientists out there who, who don't think that this is a thing.
You know, they, they're the, uh, the cornea of their eye is much less developed, so they absorb a lot more of these blue light wavelengths. So actually you could argue that some of the more conventional, kind of brighter, cooler white LEDs, they're even more harmful for children.
Mollie: So true.
Dan: So we wanted to consider that too.
And what we actually did was engineered our, our, uh, daytime light mode to reduce the higher energy visible light, which means, you know, only more protection for our eyes, more protection for our skin, and these sorts of things. Um, lots of things I've spoken about so far. So it's, you know, shifting dynamically in terms of color, in terms of brightness.
We put the infrared back in. We've taken out some of the harsher blue wavelengths whilst, you know, maintaining the, the, the melanopsin activating wavelengths, and two other very important things. Um, we, we remove flicker. Mm. Okay. So flicker isn't something that we talk about a lot in lighting. It's actually, um, a design choice of the drivers that are used.
And the [00:50:00] problem is that cheaper drivers tend to flicker, okay? And people wanna produce things very cheaply. And the best way to describe this in the, in the real world is if, you know, if you take a mobile phone and you film like a television screen where you go out and maybe at Christmas you're filming the parade and you look back at that video on your phone and the screen looks really teared up and it looks all strange.
You're like, I didn't film that. I'm like, what's going on here? Well, you did, and the lights around you were flickering sub perceptually. Outside of like the conscious awareness of your mind, sometimes after 50 or 60 times per second. And we know, 'cause there's research that that's stimulating the brain, it's causing stress and things like that.
So if there's a choice that we can take flicker out of lighting and make it essentially visible flicker, sorry, invisible flicker free, why wouldn't we do that? And so that's what we did. Um, and then, you know, finally, I think, um, a really important, uh, point and, and I kind of alluded to this before, is like the electromagnetic emissions of light sources and things like that.
Because when you're using Bluetooth remotes controllers, you know, do we need more tech? Do we need more frequency? [00:51:00] Which let's be honest, there's, you know, very little research to demonstrate the impacts of, of some of these more modern electrical frequencies on human health over long terms and long periods.
So really, um, if I could sum it up, the better sleep bulb is our best attempt at recreating, um, a, a naturally appropriate light spectrum that we believe can enhance people's health. In indoor environments. This is not just about getting your clock time correctly. This is about how can we work with the human body to replace what is lost from the outdoor world so that hopefully people's health can improve and they can spend more time outdoors in the world.
Mollie: Yes. Oh, I love that. Thank you Daniel, for walking us through that. And I just wanna put in that I've had the opportunity to have this better bulb in my house for a whole stretch, to be able to test it out myself, and I've been loving it, so thank you so much for sending that my way. And when people hear about some of the, I mean, granted, I've [00:52:00] shared on this podcast I grew up with like very little money, uh, in a trailer in, you know, middle of nowhere, Maine, and not a lot of finances to invest in different things, certainly in the realm of health.
And yet. I want to really underscore that I've done hundreds of episodes in supporting people with their sleep, and I've found that there, I believe only a few things that you could invest in that could make a real measurable difference in your sleep and your health. And I believe that light and things that can support light are some of the most important things.
And we're talking like minimal investments in the scheme of things, of the return on investment. And I've no stake in this company or anything. It's just, you know, I really want to have people understand that as opposed to dropping more money on another supplement. And another this and another that, like I believe this is more the direction you wanna go, is to look at this as a [00:53:00] foundational piece and then you can fine tune other things.
But as Jay was pointing to, having this as where we build all of our other aspects of health. But this is the start of the pyramid in my estimation.
Jai: Yeah. Yeah. And you made, you made a, a really good point in terms of the, um, the return on investment, right. And, and I think people sometimes struggle to wrap their heads around that.
'cause they think light bulb, really a light bulb is actually an amazing piece of technology. Like in terms of what it actually does, in terms of very little power draw. Very small device creates, you know, electromagnetic frequency that allows you to, to not just see but but also be healthy. So they're love light bulbs, amazing, amazing inventions.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: But the other thing is, if you really think about what light is, light is electromagnetic frequency seems to be what the entire universe is made of, right? Mm-hmm. So including the human body, so. I think because you we're around it so much, you grow up around it, it becomes quite [00:54:00] trivial. But you're actually talking about the most powerful force in the universe.
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: And so, uh, I think we need to respect our little light bulbs a little bit more. I think so. So thankfully that's ROI.
Mollie: Yes. Yes.
Dan: I would love to add a point on that because I think this can be quite confusing for people and, and we've gotten into this situation now where light bulbs, you know, your standard cool white LED light bulbs, um, are very cheap, right?
You go into Target or Walmart or something like that and you're probably looking at a couple of bucks. When you begin to put elements like, you know, infrared back into it, or you create a light bulb like ours, which has three settings in one or last for 30,000 hours and provides all these health benefits, they're not gonna be as cheap as the ones in target, but at the end of the day, they are still.
Much, much cheaper than, you know, your repeat supplement order that you are using every single year. Or you know, the insurance that you have to pay because of the multiple chronic diseases that people might be carrying over decades because of like poor circadian health, poor light exposure, and all of the, you know, health downsides that come with things like that.
So, you know, um, [00:55:00] governments invest a lot of money in infrastructure, right? Why? Because they know that once they've got that infrastructure right, then everything else works better. And that, you know, causes reductions in costs in other areas. So we need to invest in our own health infrastructure Yeah. On the way to, you know, society providing that infrastructure for us.
Mollie: Oh, couldn't agree more. And ultimately my mission is to help support people in this journey on sleeping well at night and, and helping this to really, the goal is paradoxically, to not have to think about your sleep. Really, it just kinda works. And one of the biggest levers that I've found to have that happen is to live in alignment with these rhythms of nature in rhythm as you all point to.
And so, 'cause we don't ideally want you having to meditate yourself off to sleep or do all, I mean, if you wanna, great. But ideally it's just all happening because we're living in alignment with these things. And the more that we can have pioneers like yourself that [00:56:00] are creating these things in the background, I mean, I'd love to see things like this in hospitals and nursing homes and all these places too, that it's one less step of efforting and one more kind of direction of automaticity.
So. Love this before we, I, and I also wanna be thoughtful of your speaking of rhythms, of getting you all to sleep. So we do shift over to asking everyone, you know, four questions about their sleep. But before we do that, did we lose anything? Did I miss anything? I know I took us on a lot of different hats, but did we miss any major points that you wanted to make?
Jai: No, I think the just one thing that I'd add is actually just, um, based on something that you just said. I mean, you, you, you mentioned meditation, right? And, and I, and I'm sure, I'm sure you've spoken to people in, you've podcasted about it. I'm sure many of your listeners, uh, really value meditation as a tool to get to sleep.
And, and, and so do, I I think it's fantastic. Many things. What is meditation actually doing to your body? Right? It's doing many, many things, right? It's bringing your mind into your, your, you know, your, your cortical brain activity into [00:57:00] coherence, bringing your heart into coherence. Bring your entire nervous system into that parasympathetic dominant phase where it's, it's, you know, nice regular synchronized and puts you into sleep.
Now what's amazing about focusing on light and the light environment is that once you can optimize your light environment, you are actually handing over some of that load of regulating your nervous system into your environment.
Mollie: Yeah,
Jai: because. If you are living under artificial incoherent lights or artificial lights, I should say, it's causing a lot of incoherence in your body.
It's causing chronic low level inflammation. It's causing nervous system dysregulation. So we are running around all day or even trying to get to bed, but the environment is still triggering your nervous system. Right. And sleep is fundamentally a nervous system state, and even more fundamentally a brain state.
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: Right? So we need to, you know, with, with appropriate, um, lighting, we're actually handing over some of that load so that it's, it's a little bit gentler, a little bit easier for the body [00:58:00] to, um, to, to then uptake. You know, things like meditation, get even better results, uh, and, and hopefully sail into the deeper sleep of our lives.
Mollie: Oh, that's great. Awesome.
Dan: What we're really excited by at the moment, like next steps for us as, as an organization, are really around, um, you know, collecting a lot of data, working with great academics, continuing to develop like our lighting and lighting solutions At the minute, you know, we've just got a, a regular kind of screw fit, a a 19, a 60 bulb, but we're looking already at, you know, like how we can develop lumiere's, recess lights, downlights, and, and things that can really support consumers and support, um.
Like institutions, you mentioned things like hospitals, schools, these sorts of things with lighting that is appropriate from day to night, you know? Yeah. So we're really just getting started and I think it's so exciting to see the results we're getting with these first products and the feedback we're getting from people given in, like just how much room there is for growth in, in this area, in this industry.
And we know that other people are working on these solutions as well. And, and, and [00:59:00] quite frankly, it's an amazing thing because it's gonna take so many of us
Jai: Yes.
Dan: You know, through collaborate efforts to, to make, uh, to build a legacy, you know, that really changes the world for our future children, you know, our grandchildren and things like that.
When all is said and done in a hundred years time when none of us are, are, are no longer sitting here doing podcasts. Yeah. I hope that they, they will know that, you know, it took a, a great number of amazing humans, uh, around the world to come together to, to really see this into fruition.
Mollie: Yes, I couldn't agree more.
The last thing I'll say about that is we're spending a decent amount of time talking about light bulbs and for good reason though I think so many of us, as Jay pointed out, we might have just grown up with these in the background, so they seem like innocuous or just they're just there. What's the big deal?
And I've often referenced the scientific consensus paper that had come out a couple years ago with those 250 circadian scientists, you know, referenced in nearly 2,700 peer reviewed publications, all calling for warning labels on light bulbs when used at night. So potentially pointing [01:00:00] to the possibility that.
While, so there can be harms coming from these just, you know, basic light bulbs, but there could also be potentially positive swings if we are more thoughtful about their design, which is certainly what I've heard from the two of you. So exciting stuff and shifting to hopefully also support your sleep.
Just a couple quick questions on how you're managing your sleep. I know tonight is a anomaly, but what might we normally see in your nighttime kind of wind down, sleep routine?
Dan: Jerry, do you like to go first?
Jai: Yeah, sure. Um, I mean, look, we, uh, we we're in Thailand at the moment. We, we do have to take a lot of late calls.
Sometimes we try and avoid it if we can.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: Um, but fundamentally the most important thing for me in the evening is my light exposure. So I'll get out around about the time of sunset to make sure that there's enough sunset light that gets into my eye. So I'll go and watch the Sunset, which is beautiful nature program due to watch the sunset.
So what I delight, [01:01:00] that is a delight.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: This is why, uh, no sunset will ever get boring, right? Mm-hmm. So it'll always flag, you'll always be great. Um, and so we get enough, I get enough, uh, sunset light in my eyes, make sure it's unfiltered. Um, and then once I go back inside, I'm living by, you know, circadian friendly lights.
These might be these trusty red lights that we've got. It may be, you know, the, the better sleep bulbs that I've got on, uh, as well. Um, and I'll use blue light blocking glasses and screen filters just to, to really minimize the amount of blue light that's actually going into my eyes. That generally does a great job at, at, at getting me, uh, getting me a little bit tired.
Um, but I do really like to end the day with 15, 20 minutes of meditation, just serenity breathing meditation. Um, really helps to, to ground generally. By the end of that, I am barely able to keep my eyes open. Yes. So, uh. I say lt, sometimes reading, um, as long as it's not too stimulating is also, is also a really, really nice activity.
Um, so I'd say my evening routine is, is [01:02:00] relatively simple, but I've, uh, found, found it effective to focus on these things that really move the dial for me specifically, which are, you know, light meditation and uh, and reading. I
Mollie: love it. Yes. And I hope everyone knows that I'm not hating on meditation.
Meditation's great. We want meditation. Also, you know, wanna make sure that we're not efforting too much for sleep. And what you're pointing to is this beautiful kind of, where everything is kind of urging the body towards sleep gently. Or you know, kind of creating the environment of downregulation versus like, oh, okay, I gotta do, I gotta take the supplement and I gotta, you know, wear this light helmet and I gotta, eh, all these different things work.
'cause I'll have people come my way and they've got 27 step routine and they're still not sleeping, you know? So Absolutely the beauty is in just that simplicity. So I love that you're pointing to that. Really great Jay. And then Daniel, how about you?
Dan: Well, [01:03:00] Jay talking about his routine made me feel like I'm so ready for sleep.
I can close my eyes. And then you mentioning in those 27 supplements got me so stressed out. I feel like I'm back.
Mollie: It's clear, right? Yeah, it's exactly right.
Dan: So for, for me, it's, it is very similar to Jay. You know, my light environment really takes priority. So like, sat next to me right now, I won't flick it through the settings, but you, you have, see if you're looking on the camera is my, my better sleep bulb on its lowest dimmest reds, um, blue free setting.
Blue light blocking glasses. I'm not wearing 'em right now 'cause I have no blue light in my environment or really much bright light at all. But those are really, really handy. And then, uh, just for me, and I think, you know, this is, is a personal kind of, um, n equals one experimental kind of thing that I did over the years is that I'm.
I, I like to use earplugs. I like to use an eye mask. And I also like to, to tape my mouth shut with a little bit of, of microboard tape. And that's because I don't know if my breathing pattern or my jaw development or whatever happened to me in my younger years. I tend to do quite a bit of snoring if I don't use mouth tape.
And, and I tend to notice, like, immediately a reduction in my sleep [01:04:00] quality. So really it's about, you know, taking myself into the see no evil, hear no evil, speak, no evil, as I say. Um, getting myself all, all, um, all ready for sleep. And then, uh, yeah, just, uh, just really the timing of my sleep is, is a super important one for me.
Um, you know, uh, we, we haven't really spoken about it very much, but, you know, I'm, I'm a man of the modern world and sometimes I can get sucked into a screen device, you know, especially working Cross Continental at the moment. And so. There is a profound difference for me if I, you know, put my mobile phone away for 30 to 60 minutes before I sleep versus if I'm sending text messages or using the internet or social media or anything up until the time that at which I do sleep.
So for me, like, um, especially also being here in Copen Yang in Thailand and being around a lot of other very inspiring, um, you know, young people to actually spend time in community and to be around other people as a way to regulate my nervous system as opposed to like, you know, I, and I get it right when I'm at home in the UK and it's cold and wet and I'm living in an apartment on my own.
Of course, I use more technology because I still want to stay in touch with my friends and my [01:05:00] family and. You know, have relations, but, uh, being able to actually be around, you know, people in the flesh and, and using that as a way to just like, you know, co-regulate and, and find coherence in the evenings and, and wind down.
So yeah. That was, that was a kind of longish list, but you, you got some of those things I think.
Mollie: I love that. That's great. And hitting on so many important points between the two of you and then what might we see in your morning sleep routine with the idea that how you start your day could impact your sleep?
Jai: Gosh, morning light first thing has probably been the biggest life changing practice that I've built. Like, honestly, I, it's almost addictive in, in how good it feels.
Mollie: Yes.
Jai: Um, I no longer drink caffeine. I've found over the years that caffeine, actually, I'm actually highly sensitive to caffeine.
Mollie: Yeah.
Jai: Um, and, uh, what I wasn't aware of is that even a coffee, you know, a coffee early in the morning is still in your system when, when you are, when you're trying to go to bed.
And so, and some
Mollie: time, yeah.
Jai: Exactly. But actually these days, I, I don't even think about caffeine and coffee because get outside first thing, get into that morning light and it, and it [01:06:00] acts like coffee. Right. It wakes you up. Yeah. It's much sustainable. Without the jitters, it's the best coffee ever.
Mollie: Right. It, it's the best.
I, yeah, I've often said that too. Exactly.
Jai: And so, uh, I'm out there and I, the first thing I do is my, uh, exercises, their nervous system exercises, really to actually just get myself into it. Basically parasympathetic dominance and um, kind of low cul tone. I find that's a really good foundation to sort of set my day, set my mind, um, if I can, uh, get in some, some meditation, a little bit of Joe dispenser.
I'll do that in the morning. Just Yep. Just to get coherent. Uh, and then I'll go about my day.
Mollie: Love that. So good. What about you, Daniel?
Dan: You know, as the great Gau said in Northern Rings, look to my coming at first light on the fifth day at Dawn. Look to the East. Ah, so that's my, my first step is, you know, doors open out, looking up at the sky, usually feet on the earth.
Obviously. That's, uh, a particular privilege that we have out here in Thailand at the moment, being in the tropics, is that the weather's a bit better, so it's not freezing cold outside like it is in the northern hemisphere in the winter. Yes. So, yeah, for me, get outdoors, get your feet up in the [01:07:00] earth, look up at the sky and, you know, at least five or 10 minutes outside, usually shake it off, get my lymph going, you know, move around a little bit, as Jay said, some kind of breathing or some, you know, uh, activity to kind of like allow me to, to breathe gently into the day.
Um, unlike a previous time in my life where, and I'm not immune to this forever, right? You know, I'm woken up and looked at a mobile phone screen or, you know, darted in the kitchen and had a cup of coffee or, or things like that. I definitely find that my entire day is better regulated when I use those natural cues.
As opposed to the artificial ones.
Mollie: Totally couldn't agree more. Okay. And then what might we see in your environment? On your nightstand or just around, uh, your sleep space?
Dan: Yeah. I, I don't see much because I've got my eye mask on, but
Mollie: yeah,
Dan: it's my eye mask until it gets wrapped around my face.
Mollie: Yes, same.
Totally same.
Jai: I try to keep my environment quite simple. Uh, same I often. I often find that if I'm stressed out i'll, and I'm not aware of it, I [01:08:00] look at my room.
Mollie: Mm-hmm.
Jai: And there's generally stuff everywhere and stuff on the floor and, and I find the environment becomes a reflection of your internal space, and then it sort of has this reinforcing effect.
So I, I tend to keep things very simple. I mean, you can't really see much, but I really don't have many possessions, so I've got,
Mollie: I'm like that too. Minimal.
Jai: I've got a few, yeah. I've got a few books. I've got my water. Um, reading a book currently called When We Cease to Understand the World, which seems very, very relevant in, in the modern times.
Yes.
Mollie: Interesting. Um,
Jai: yeah, books, water, and just, uh, no electronics. That's a big rule. Um mm-hmm. Otherwise, very, very simple.
Mollie: So good. Yeah. You know, similar to the evening routine, we've definitely seen through lines of, 'cause some people will come on the podcast and there's. They're like, you know, to be honest, I research and sleep, but I'm still struggling in sleep for something.
And often we'll see some of the people that are still not doing the best in, in the world of how they're managing or thinking of their sleep. And they might have tons of things on their nightstand or in [01:09:00] their environment to aim to maybe this extra gadget, gizmo, et cetera, supplement will help with my sleep.
But often what we see is that the people that are really at ease and that the their sleep is really working, aren't relying on a lot of those things. And often the minimalism is a big part of that. And I also like that just from a kind of building biology perspective of just less things being plugged in next to your head and all the stuff around you.
It's like, yes, less is more often. Great. Okay. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you see that's made kind of the biggest difference in the management of your sleep? Or maybe said another way. Biggest aha moment in managing your sleep.
Dan: Yeah. Um, I think for me it, it's nervous system regulation and light comes into that as does like, you know, breathing, avoidance of stimulants, totally use of mouth tape, you know, every, every decision that I'm making that's a net positive for my sleep is moving me closer towards a more rested and regulated nervous system.
Mollie: Yeah, [01:10:00] I couldn't agree more.
Jai: Yeah. I'd say, I'd say for me, I mean outside of the huge aha, moment of light and sc rhythms that we've talked about for a long time, yeah. I think for me it's the sort of, um, the ritual aspects of it, the sort of consistent practice that the process of going to bed. Is, is I think rituals a, a good word that I use, right?
Yeah. There's, there is a, you might call it a practice or a ritual, but there's, there's a level of consistency that if you can, if you can get into on a daily basis, it really helps that wind down process. And, and it doesn't have to be the things that I've said, right? Like maybe reading is not your thing.
Right? So it is not to say that it has to be reading or even meditation. Yeah. It can be whatever, whatever your thing is that calms you down. It might be totally a bit of stretching. It might be a, a warm, you know, herbal tea or whatever it might be. Yeah. Find those things and, and, and build a little bit of a ritualistic practice around it, particularly struggle with sleep and I, I think it will really help you.
Mollie: Yeah, I love that you said that too. 'cause we [01:11:00] do see that these rituals almost seem to land as sort of, um, safety cues and certainly when we're feeling like unsafe in any way, shape or form. And that could point to what Daniel was speaking to of, you know, nervous system dysregulation and all of these different indicators that we can have.
Reliability count vulnerableness, you know, it's like we always do kind of these. Similar steps. It's not to put us into like a fragile state that like, if we don't have exactly that, we can't be, but to have a fairly common way of winding down. And so, and that's a thoughtful way to set up both your days and your nights.
So I love that you pointed to the ritual piece and Daniel, I completely agree with the light and the nervous system kind of being intermixed, co-mingled. So, so well said. And then, so for anyone that's listening and they want to test out the bulb, they wanna follow your work, different thought processes that you all have on this, you know, way, the kind of lifestyle and or [01:12:00] Daniel, I know you've been a part of different research and really making a difference in lots of aspects of this.
So how could people do that? How could they follow you and take those steps?
Dan: Yeah, definitely. So, um, I think we, we provided a lot of links and things like that for the, the show notes. Yeah. Um, to talk to the, the business and organization. So our website is in Rhythm Earth. And that's also our social media handle for everything from Instagram to Facebook, to TikTok and all of those sorts of things.
Um, you'll also find me, uh, on Instagram and Daniel Lloyd White is my full handle, and I'm, I'm quite active on LinkedIn and Instagram and, uh, Jay's got a couple of places where he likes to share his wisdom as well.
Jai: Yeah, so everything that, that Dan mentioned from the company perspective, but I also, um, have a, an Instagram page called The Story of Light, or the Story of Light Under Official because, uh, I, I write and, and produce content, uh, about light, which, as you've gathered, is our favorite topic.
Yes. But, uh, those, those writings [01:13:00] and authorship also lean more into the, the spiritual and philosophical significance of light. And it's a, a modern exploration of, of all the different dimensions of light and, and how I believe it may be one of our most, uh, most beneficial tools to, uh, try and navigate.
Some dark times that we may be going through towards the future that, um, hopefully is a lot brighter than it is dark.
Mollie: Oh, beautifully said. I couldn't agree more. Well, thank you both for the work that you're doing. Thank you for taking the time to join in on Zoom and the, we like late hours of your evening and looking forward to both following the innovations that you're making with the V one and future vs.
Of all of your kind of iterations. And I'm very grateful to have my own light bulb as well. Like, I mean, it's, I really only am sharing with Daniel. I only have like a few lights in my house, much to the cha grand of my husband and so, so yours is one of them. So it's a really nice, uh, really nice thing. So really [01:14:00] appreciate it.
Dan: Thank you so much, Molly. It's been a pleasure to have. Thank you so much. Awesome. Very amazing. Yes,
Mollie: absolutely. Thank you. You've been listening to The Sleep As A Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level. Every Monday, I send out the Sleep Obsessions newsletter, which aims to be one of the most obsessive newsletters on the planet.
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