Brian Karr, a second-generation indoor environmental consultant, specializes in assisting hypersensitive individuals with complex medical conditions by identifying and addressing mold, mycotoxins, and other indoor pathogens in their homes, leading to significant improvements in their health. As the co-founder of We Inspect and The Dust Test, Brian has become a recognized authority on indoor environmental mold and biotoxin issues for medical professionals nationwide, having assisted over 10,000 hypersensitive individuals in creating healthier living environments. Beyond his consulting role, Brian is dedicated to education within the environmental and health industries and among consumers. He accomplishes this through speaking engagements at international health conferences and industry training symposiums. Additionally, Brian democratizes knowledge through his popular podcast, #moldfinders: RADIO, and comprehensive training programs that empower both consumers and health practitioners to properly navigate mold and biotoxin issues.
Brian Karr, a second-generation indoor environmental consultant, specializes in assisting hypersensitive individuals with complex medical conditions by identifying and addressing mold, mycotoxins, and other indoor pathogens in their homes, leading to significant improvements in their health.
As the co-founder of We Inspect and The Dust Test, Brian has become a recognized authority on indoor environmental mold and biotoxin issues for medical professionals nationwide, having assisted over 10,000 hypersensitive individuals in creating healthier living environments.
Beyond his consulting role, Brian is dedicated to education within the environmental and health industries and among consumers. He accomplishes this through speaking engagements at international health conferences and industry training symposiums. Additionally, Brian democratizes knowledge through his popular podcast, #moldfinders: RADIO, and comprehensive training programs that empower both consumers and health practitioners to properly navigate mold and biotoxin issues.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 What if your air affects more than lungs?
😴 Why does mold keep your body on high alert?
😴 Could your home be disrupting restful sleep?
😴 Why do some people feel better on vacation?
😴 What happens when stress never truly switches off?
😴 How can hidden water leaks become bigger problems?
😴 Could your gut be affected by indoor air?
😴 Why should multiple symptoms raise a red flag?
😴 What simple dust test helps reveal hidden mold?
😴 How can better air quality support deeper recovery?
😴 Why does data help uncover hidden health issues?
😴 Which small changes could improve sleep and wellness?
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The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep Is a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week, I'll be interviewing world-class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and, by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before
Welcome back to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. You can optimize your bedroom routine, buy the perfect mattress, and still wake up completely exhausted. If the problem isn't you, it might be your home. Today, I'm joined by Brian Carr, co-founder of We Inspect and The Dust Test, and one of the leading experts in indoor environmental health.
We explore how hidden mold, biotoxins, and poor indoor air quality can quietly affect your nervous system, inflammation, and sleep, along with particular ways to recognize the warning signs before they become bigger health issues. If you've hit a wall with your sleep, this episode may reveal the missing piece.
Share this episode with someone who's been struggling with unexplained fatigue or poor sleep, and remember, the space you sleep in matters. And welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. Our guest today, Brian. Brian Carr, thank you so much for taking the time to be here. Yay. I'm very excited- Yay ... to be here.
I love sleep. It's one of my favorite things to do, and so I'm excited to talk about it. All right. This is fanta- I already knew this was gonna be a great conversation, but, you know, when you lead with that, given- There you go ... if anyone's seeing the video, the Sleep Is a Skill sweatshirt, now I'm just walking around with, you know, sleep- I love that, by the way.
That is awesome. Do we like this, right? This is kinda new to me. And it, then it has a nice little added, you can't quite see it, but sunrise, sunset, repeat on the wrist. I mean- Love it ... things that bring joy, you know? Simple things. Brian, thank you so much. You know, it's really great. Before we hit record, it was becoming apparent to me that this is gonna be a fantastic conversation for people, and probably illuminating some blind spots or potential things that might be at play in their environment or, or beyond that could be impacting their sleep that they just might have no idea about.
And that's really part of our commitment at Sleep Is a Skill, is as opposed to just, you know, the top 10 tips of things that you can do to improve your sleep, have some lavender and all these things. Nothing against lavender. I'm always hitting on lavender over here. Uh, but poor lavender. But you know, just beyond what this basic surface level around some of these things we can do to impact the thing we're doing a third of our lives, on average, 26 years are spent asleep, and yet many times we're not thinking rather critically about it.
So just wanna thank you for taking the time to come on and talk about your love of sleep- Yeah ... and some of the things that you're discovering that make a difference. So maybe beginning there in your world of expertise, and how that world can support this goal of sleep optimization for people. Yeah. I mean, so my world is, you know, mold, mold toxins.
That's my world, right? And so it's like, well, sleep, like, what are we talking about, right? Yes. And there are, there are many- health connections to exposure to mold, to mold toxins across every single body system in your body, every single one. So and that's what makes mold in the environment so interesting for people to wrap their head around, is because there isn't just, like, one thing that happens to you when you're exposed, right?
It's cognitive issues, it's behavioral issues, it's gut issues, it's hormone issues, it's fertility issues. It's, I mean, it's literally everything across the board, right? And so what's really interesting, and over the years as we've continued to learn more and more and more about the direct health connections that, that mold exposure does have on people...
You know, at the beginning, you know, a decade ago, it was like, "All of our clients are sick. Let's try to figure this out why they're all sick," right? Yes. And so it was very almost, like, qualitative. Like, yeah, mold is kind of the through line of all these people that are really sick, right? And then all the doctors have, over time, have learned a whole lot about it, right?
Mm-hmm. And it's interesting 'cause what, what mold ultimately do- Like, if you just, like, took it super, super high level, your body is just on high alert all the time when it's exposed to mold. Mm. And I think when we're having a conversation around sleep, I think that's, like, a really good frame to look at it around.
Yes. Because you're being attacked with every breath that you take. So I, I like to share, like, this visual for people to really just understand, like, how big of a deal this is. So imagine you open your front door, and when you open your front door, there's a big giant man there that punches you in the face.
Mm. Okay. Just open my door, punch in the face. Just overalls. Yeah. Cool Shut the door. You open the door again, the dude is still standing there, and he punches you again in the face. And every time you open the door, there's a big, giant angry man just punching you in the face. And you would want to not open that door anymore, for one.
Right. But two, you would s- you would start developing this anxiety and this nervous system reaction to the sight of a door. You'd be like, "Oh, my God, every time I see a door and I open it, some giant man punches me in the face." Yeah. And your body is naturally switched into this, you know, people call it fight or flight.
You know- Mm ... the technical is you're in your sympathetic, uh, nervous system state. Your body is switched into sympathetic mode all of the time. Mm. And when your body is constantly afraid and constantly on high alert, you are not going to have quality sleep from a sleep lens because you have to be able to shift into parasympathetic and have your body get there.
Your, your time spent in restorative sleep is gonna be less. You're gonna wake up, and you're not gonna feel as good. Your HRV and your, and your, all that's, all those metrics are gonna be out because that's a reflection of your nervous system and your preparedness, right? All of that stuff is gonna be off, and it's gonna be because your body is effectively in this I'm scared for my life state, okay?
Yes. So now to bring context around the man who really is not at your door, right? But what's happening in our homes when there, when there is a mold issue that's in our house, we breathe 20,000 times every day. Mm. Every breath is a punch. And so if we are breathing mold exposure in the house, if we have issues in the house, every breath we take is a trigger on our immune system.
And so we're just training constantly and, and just being hit, hit, hit, hit, which is a reason a lot of times people who have had, like, really significant long-term mold exposure and have had really significant health issues, once they get rid of the mold issue in the house, which is always step number one, if you don't take the guy out of the front door, you're never gonna stop getting punched in the face.
Uh-huh. So the first step is you gotta get the guy away from the front door, right? Yeah. So you gotta solve your, your exposure problem, right? That's always the first thing. And then once you solve your exposure problem, then you start fixing your body, right? So now you gotta start healing your mangled face, right?
So now it's ice, but it's other things. It's all these other things you have to do. If you keep getting punched, it, it doesn't work, so you get rid of the guy punching you. But now you gotta heal your face. At that point you might need plastic surgery and this- Mm ... crazy analogy path that I'm going down to fix your face.
I love it. I'm here for it. Um, but, but you need that. But now there's a psychological component too. Yeah. Where now you just have this built-in fear mechanism- Yeah ... of front doors, right? And so a lot of times there's, there's a neurofeedback or there's some sort of neurotraining that then can, that might need to come into, which is like a trauma training effectively to kinda relieve yourself of your trauma, and that's kind of a third piece that some people have to go down when they go down this road.
So I share all of this as the frame for this conversation, just to kinda put some context around, like, what it means for sleep. And the... When we think about ex- external stressors on the body, I think there's actually a lot of understanding around how our external environment impacts sleep from a high level point of view, right?
Again, I told you I love sleep. I love sleep. I love sleeping. I love sleeping well. I love tracking all of the things I could possibly track that impacts my sleep. Like, this is like a little side passion project of mine. And so, and so there are things that I know that are external influences on me that if I address them and I do things in a certain way, I'm gonna see improvement in my sleep metrics, right?
One of them is I have this fundamental craving now for blue light blocking glasses. Mm. Like, there is a point in the day- Where my body is almost like I have to have these on my face right now. It's not even like a nice to have anymore. It's a if it's not there, I'm uncomfortable. I feel weird. I feel off.
Like, and I'll literally be downstairs with my wife. She's like cooking dinner. I'll be like, "I have to go, I have to go up and put my glasses on" And I come down with like my orange shade ones on. Yeah. And I'm like, "Okay, I feel so much be- And I can feel it. I feel so much better. Yeah. And it's so weird. But like when you really dial in on like what that feeling is for you, that is an example of changing an external stressor.
The nice thing with light is you can put glasses on. Done. Problem solved, right? You can't really do that with what you're breathing in your house as effectively, but it's such a good analogy because I f- I am so dialed into it now that I can feel when my stress is creeping up because the sunlight goes down, the lights in the house are more prevalent on what's going on.
Mm. And all of a sudden I'm getting more of that signal to the eyes, and then I just feel it building up in me. And I have to go put these things on to get rid of it. Yeah. And so the external stressors on sleep, I, you, you know this better than anybody. There's like all this research that's supporting all that stuff.
And the one thing that I really would, would love to just kinda bring some awareness around today is that the air in our environment is, in my opinion, one of the bigger stressors, and it's one of the stressors that's the hardest to address because you can't like flip it off with a switch or put a pair of glasses on and it goes away, or eat my dinner earlier in the night 'cause I know if I eat earlier my sleep is better.
Like those are very easy tweaks that you can make. Mm-hmm. It's like I'm just gonna shift my eating window. I'm just gonna put these glasses on. Mm-hmm. I'm gonna do whatever I'm gonna do. Yeah. The air in your space is not necessarily as easy of a tweak, but because you're breathing 20,000 times every day, it's a constant hit to your body.
And the other really big compounding effect of the air in our home and our space is that it does not only affect our lungs and our breathing patterns. And this is one big thing about external triggers to the body that makes the air, you know, in my opinion, one of the biggest, biggest problems, even more than food, even more than water, even more than these other things on our body.
Because when you eat or you drink or whatever- You're, you're swallowing it, it goes into your gut, it directly impacts one significant, one main body system in your body. One place. Now, of course, it's gonna have secondary impacts. You get leaky gut, you trigger inflammatory responses, like, things will happen.
But it's gonna directly impact just one main body system, it's gonna go to your gut. Mm. So that's true for makeup we put on. Like, everybody's concerned about all these things. Makeup, one body system. It's your skin. Yeah. What you're eating, one body system. It's your gut, right? So these are those, those types of things.
We're talking about light, one straight body system is hitting, you know, directly to your nervous system through your eyes. So air has a direct impact to three different body systems. It is the only exterior stressor, trigger, call it what you will, that impacts more than one body system primarily directly.
And when you think about it that way, it just really opens up the understanding of how important this is, because it's hitting me from three different places at the same time, as opposed to one place, uh, that then cascades. You now get three places that are cascading. So the three places, the first one, obviously you breathe, it's your lungs, it's your respiratory system.
That's the obvious one. Mm-hmm. Now, the second one, when we breathe through our nose, which the majority of our breathing is, you'll, again, if we're in an environment that has mold, toxins, bacteria, like even other things, whatever it might be, it gets into your sinuses, it gets into your mucus, and you, everyone has postnasal drip that goes down their throat and drops straight into their gut.
And you are actually seeding your gut with whatever is in your environment. So we all know the gut microbiome. Everybody has, like, talked about this. We at least are aware of what this is. And, you know, for those that don't, there's bacteria, there's y- there's all this stuff in your gut. It's like this little hidden, or it's like this little, not hidden- Mm
secured, like, war ground. Battlefield. Mm. Basically. And it's secured from the rest of the body, which is why leaky gut's such a problem, because you don't want that stuff getting out because there's just all this stuff happening in there that shouldn't be getting out into our body. When you have a mold issue in your house, or you have m- mold toxin issues in your house, and you breathe it through your sinuses and it directly seeds your gut, you are now throwing off the entire ecosystem of your gut.
So let's imagine you have a war that's going on and, um, and there's a battle and there's a, there's, uh, you know, the good guys and the bad guys, and they have the same, they have the same number of, of troops and they're kinda doing their thing and that's sort of what's happening. That's like a balanced gut.
Now imagine I come in and I drop in another million troops from another competing force somewhere, and now they start fighting everybody and you turn what's more of a controlled fighting engagement into a mass chaos like I just dropped an atomic bomb in your gut. Hmm. And you're gonna start getting overgrowths of different bacterias or different fungal overgrowths.
You're gonna start getting toxin creation in your gut that would not be getting created because now you have different organisms defending themselves differently that they wouldn't be doing normally. Throws your entire... That is a direct impact on your gut. So a lot of times we talk about the food that's causing those problems.
"Oh, it's the food that you eat. It has toxins on it." Maybe, right? I mean- Mm ... obviously, that happens. Yeah. But you're eating three or four times a day, you're breathing 20,000 times a day. Mm. And if you have toxins in your house, where most of us spend 90% of our time, that is going in there every single time.
So it's a huge, huge, huge impact. So that's your second area. And your third area is your skin. So we talked about you put makeup on, right? Mm. That impacts- Yeah ... that impacts your body. The same as if you have toxins settling on your skin, right? Mm. And that's gonna happen. You have spores, particles, toxins floating around in your house.
That's how you're breathing it. It's also gonna settle on your skin. You're gonna get impacted from the skin soaking in, from your lungs pumping it through your, through your blood, and then from your gut throwing off the entire gut microbiome and then causing mass cascade issues all downstream. It is so important.
It is so important. And one of these things that, you know, sleep is one part of it, but overall health, right? Yeah. When you're sleeping, that's your primary time to recover. So now imagine, and, and think you're not eating when you're sleeping, you're not doing these other things when you're sleeping, so it's like you can recover from bad meals and stuff if you s- if you stack them earlier in your day or you do whatever, you- your body kinda has some time.
There is no escaping the air you breathe. And if you're sleeping, every breath you take during those eight, seven, eight, nine hour, you know, six, seven, eight, however many you do, every one's an attack still. It's 24/7. It is relentless. It never stops. And that is why I, I really do feel like it's the most important trigger, not just for sleep and getting better quality sleep, but just overall health in general.
Ugh. Well, thank you so much for illustrating that, walking us through potentially a new lens by which to see the world around us. And from that place, I'm wondering, 'cause one of the things that I tend to see with people that will come our way is one, certainly they haven't heard everything you just said, potentially.
And so- Mm ... there's maybe not quite that same reverence for the air we're breathing. Number two, we'll hear people say things like, "Oh, well, you know, I got air purifier in my bedroom, an air purifier downstairs, and I think we're fine." Right? So th- kind of just this like, check, we took the preliminary steps and we're good.
Mm-hmm. And I'm wondering if you can kinda help us from, like, you know, just a 101 perspective and now that we've established, okay, this is incredibly important for not even just sleep, but overall wellbeing, which is really our angle with identifying what's working, what's not working with sleep, not just so that we can sleep great, but so we can live a great life.
It's to- Mm-hmm ... what you're pointing to, the, the experience of our days by day because we've supported our ability to rejuvenate at night. And so when you work with people or kinda help illustrate this or educate, where do people begin on this journey? Yeah, I think there's two or th- may- maybe I'll think of another one, but there's at least two places that people come in.
Maybe there's a third the first one is And this is the majority of our clients have some sort of significant health issue going on. Mm. So, like, our, our place in this world is we're, we're kind of the doctor for your home. We're like, we're like the functional medicine doctor for your home- Sure ... that actually figures out where causes, where like, where issues are stemming from, like root cause.
And we, we have this process called exposure mapping, which basically it's reverse engineering what you're breathing to where it's coming from, and then creating an action plan to reduce that as much as possible, right? So but the majority of our clients, 'cause nobody wakes up and is like, "I wanna, I wanna know my mold situation in my house."
Right. Literally no one in the world has ever done that, right? And so there's usually a trigger that's causing someone to go down that road. And even for our conversation, sleep is generally not a big enough trigger for that to happen to somebody, right? Sure. Yeah. So it's, it's a, I'm having, I'm having cognitive issues, right?
Um, it's Alzheimer's, it's cognitive decline. It's, you know, anything in that realm. Uh, persistent issues with their kids is a really big one, right? And, like, more severe, it's autism, it's severe behavioral issues. Coming down the, the spectrum a little bit it's, you know, just, just persistent things that keep happening to them that they can't figure out why they don't get better, right?
That's a little lower on, on, on there, but still important. Um, fertility is a big thing. Mm. Like, like, this is all massive hormone, uh, issues- Yeah ... and body security issues, which if your body's not safe, then your body's not really gonna allow you to get pregnant as easily 'cause it's trying to pre- Like, there's all that that goes on, right?
So there's fertility, there's there... And then there's all these, there's autoimmune, there's Lyme disease, there's all the other things, right? So there's, we generally are working with people that have themselves or their family has something kinda like significant going on, right? And so one path that people will come in is they're working with a doctor, and this is usually the primary path.
The majority of who we work with are, it's, it's directly referred by their doctor because their doctor knows that we find the problems, and the only way for the doctor to be successful is for us to come in and make sure there's an action plan to remove the guy at the door that keeps punching you in the face.
Yes. Right? And so, so that's, that's kinda one path. So people will be dealing with something, they have a doctor, they've figured out, they've probably done some clinical testing, which you could do, like, urine mycotoxin testing to see if there's toxins in your urine, for example, and that can kind of illuminate some of that stuff for you.
Another path are people who still have health stuff going on, but maybe they haven't met the doctor yet that's figured it out. And so, like, those people a lotta times, gaslighted is probably not the right word to use, but, like, they're just going to doctors that don't get it. Mm-hmm. Right? And it's... Uh, I mean, I'll give you an example of somebody literally just recently.
It's someone in another country who is incredibly high up in the ecosystem of importance of people in that country. And they have been sick for 15 years. And they have literally the best doctors in the world on their team, and nobody can figure out what's wrong with this person. And, uh, they then went out and started doing research on their own, and was like, "Oh, hey, mold, kinda looks like it might be a mold thing."
Mm. Right? So he goes... They go to their team like, "Hey, I wanna check for mold." And they're like, "It can't be mold." And the person's like, "Well, prove it to me that it's not." Went in and did the testing, and this... And it's clear as day and bad, right? And so, uh, uh, that's kinda the challenge that I think a lotta people go through.
You know? This person is lucky enough to be able to pick up a phone and talk to the tops of the world, and be like, "No, do this, do that." I... And, and he's... And this person still had to drive it themselves, right? They couldn't e- like, like, it wasn't the, the top-of-the-top doctors who figured it out. So I think a lot of people kinda go through the cycle where they're sick- Yeah
and they're not getting better, and they're trying things that the doctors are telling them that are supposed to happen, and it's not doing what it's supposed to do. And that is another person that comes in, right? And so they're kinda like, they're advocating for themself at that point. They're trying to figure out whatever possibly could happen, right?
And, and that's kind of another path that goes in. And then I would say, like, maybe the third path of people that come in are people who actually are more proactive about this, and they'll do, um, something like we have a test called the dust test where you- Mm-hmm ... can just, like, test your home and it's like a screening test, and it lets you know how bad it is and if, you know, anything's going on.
And they'll be like, "Oh, I s- I see this, and this doesn't look that great, and maybe we're thinking about having kids in the future," or maybe we just are really focused on longevity and, like, that's our, our lens, which a lotta people are in that world. Mm-hmm. And it's like, "I need to make sure that I'm optimizing whatever areas of my life, and here's where it is."
So I think no matter what area you come in through, there's generally some sort of pretty significant driver and motivation for the person to come into this world. And once you come in, there's then different... You know, the same way like I described some of the doctors, there's different versions of us too, right?
Mm. And we are the 1%, and the majority of local inspectors are the 99. Mm-hmm. And that's the equivalent of your doctor telling you to just, you know, kinda do whatever and, and you're good, right? Yeah. So I think that's just kinda like how people come in. And then, you know, our goal when, you know, as we're going through a process, depending on how far someone wants to go- Is around this concept of, of return on exposure.
That's how we kinda look at the solution that's provided, right? So mold is everywhere. You're gonna get the, the, the people who are like, "Oh, well, mold's everywhere, so like it's been here forever, and blah, blah, blah, blah," and it's all that stuff. Yeah. It's like, yeah, that's great, you know. Um, guns are everywhere.
It doesn't mean I wanna get shot every day. Yes. Like, there, there's like different things, right? Mm-hmm. And so it's, it's trying to balance out what needs to be done to solve the problem with the expense that it takes to do that solve. Mm-hmm. And to focus whatever budget you have on remediating and, and creating, um, or, or solving the problem on the things that are the most impactful to you.
Yeah. Right? So effectively think 80/20 concept. Hey, listen, we're gonna focus on these few things because these are the biggest offenders, and if you focus on those, you're gonna be able to save a lot of money on remediation on stuff that wasn't really gonna move the needle. And then the money that you did spend is gonna have the biggest return on reducing that exposure.
And that's really kinda like the frame that we use when we're guiding and creating like treatment plans for the house. Sure. Sure. Okay. So in that too, potential steps that people could take, they're listening and they're saying, "Oh, wow, I didn't quite realize that this could be such an area, or I've suspected, but I haven't quite known the steps to take."
One step could be the test that you mentioned, right? Mm-hmm. They, so they could order that test, and if they then identify that something might be at play in their space, is your recommendation based on what you've seen work most efficiently for people than to hire someone like yourself that's in this day in, day out, but to your point, that is knowledgeable and able to provide kind of a elevated series of steps for people to take beyond just kind of the basics?
Is that a, a potential order of things? Yeah. And I... You could even add one on the front before you even- Okay ... pay for a test, right? Sure. 'Cause I think I'm also very big on like, hey, listen, don't spend money on stuff you don't have to spend money on, right? Sure. So there are some like clues of issue that you don't need a test to really know that, that there's an environmental trigger going on.
And then the at home test kit can either be more of a validation or just an understanding of how significant is it and help drive the, the next step after that. So I would say like look for a couple patterns. So one is- Kind of described this a- a little ago. You've been dealing with something, you're doing all those treatments, nothing fixes it.
Mm-hmm. Okay? If that's the case, then there's usually some sort of external factor that's triggering it, and all the fixes they're trying to do inside of the body can't work because the external of the body, outside of the body, is still flooding in whatever the problem is. Yeah. So, like, the internal fixes can't keep up.
So that's one really big pattern. Another one is if you have multiple people in the same house that are all dealing with something- Mm-hmm ... not the same thing But something consistently. Okay? And so it's, it's important, and the reason I said not the same thing, 'cause most times it is not the same thing, and it's because every person, every body is different.
And so if I'm breathing in an external stressor on my body, it's gonna impact a child differently than it impacts a woman, differently than it impacts a man. And then you sub that out and you're like, "Well, I've got two women here, and one of the women's being impacted really bad and the other one isn't at all."
Well, it's because their genetic makeup is different. Mm. Their previous exposures to what they were exposed to earlier in life are different, which is important 'cause that trains your nervous system on how to respond to things in the future, right? So imagine I had this trauma of this guy hit me in the face every day, and then 12 years down...
And I avoided front doors for the rest of my life. Yeah. I just had a, there was no front doors. It was just garage doors apparently. Yeah. And then one day I was staying in an Airbnb, and there was a front door that I had to go open. Mm. I would inherently have this trauma trigger that would come back out of nowhere, and I would have this response even though I haven't touched a front door in 12 years.
Mm-hmm. And it would happen 'cause my body was trained when I was younger that front doors are pain. Yeah. And so if you grew up, when you were younger or you're exposed to something when you were younger, in your teens, even in your college years, where you had mold exposures that were going on, your body kinda clocks that, and it's gonna react differently than for someone like me, who luckily I grew up in Vegas in, in, in a brand new house that was built at the time- Yeah
when I was five. Nice. And there was no history in the house, and it was in Vegas, and there wasn't any big issues. I, I wasn't around significant mold issues, right? Mm-hmm. So for me to go in a place, I don't have that historical, like, trauma fear reaction that's built into my body, right? Sure. And then the third is just what are you currently dealing with right now in your body?
Like, like, do you have Lyme disease? Do you have an autoimmune condition? Do you have something else that's going on? That's gonna be a baseline stressor on your body already, and then if you add in now an e- external mold exposure or something like that, it's a much quicker path to overflowing what your body can handle as opposed to somebody who's, who's, you know, uh...
They, a lot of people use the funnel analogy. So, like, your funnel is, like, how much stuff you can take in before your body freaks out, right? Mm-hmm. So if my funnel's halfway full 'cause I have Lyme disease already, then that means if I, I would not to, need to be exposed to as much mold to then overflow my funnel and have my body go into a, a crazy reaction.
So that, that is one pattern. Multiple people in the house, different things going on, in your mind you're like, "This can't be the house 'cause we are all doing something... It's all looking different." That is actually a bigger reason why it's the house. Mm. Is because you have one f- you have everybody reacting to something, and now we know why you're, they're reacting differently, because every body is different.
Right? So that's another big one. Another big one, if you leave, you go on vacation- You go somewhere, you're out of the house for two or three days and you're like, "Man, I feel great on vacation. This is awesome." It's not just vacation vibes. I mean, part of it might be, but a lot of times it's not only vacation vibes, especially when you come home- Mm-hmm
if you're like, "Oh, man, like, I felt so good on vacation. I don't feel that good now." Right? You left the guy punching you in the face, you started to heal for a few days, then you came back and you just got punched in the face again, and it just magnifies how much that hurts. Yes. Yeah. Totally. So, so these are just, like, patterns you can look at, right?
Mm-hmm. Now, now things that kind of complement this, if you're in your mind, you're like, "Okay, well let's say I'm seeing that pattern, but do I really think there could be a mold problem here?" Next, I want you to start thinking about have you ever had any sort of little water leak or drip or anything that's happened in your house.
And I'm not talking, like, big floods. I mean, floods are an obvious, right? Hmm. But it's not just floods, and the majority of stuff that we see in homes is not floods that happens. I would say probably... I mean, honestly, probably 90% of what we find is nothing related to, like, massive water events. Hmm. And it's something like, "Hey, my garbage disposal broke once and water fell into my sink cabinet under my kitchen sink.
But we just dried it out and got a new garbage disposal," or, "That one time, uh, my, my washing machine in my laundry room, like, leaked or something, and so we just, like, got a new washing machine," whatever. And it's these little things that happen that are actually water events that occur, but because they aren't, like, big in volume or long in terms of duration- Mm-hmm
we, like, downplay them and normalize them as like- Yeah ... oh, this is just normal house stuff. Mm-hmm. Right? And I think because we've naturally just kind of grown to normalize that type of thing, we downplay the importance that those things have and what they can actually mean in a home. And so I would just, like, go through and do mental inventory.
You don't have to be an inspector. You don't have to have eyes to know what you're looking for. Just literally be like, "Have I ever had, like, a sink that's had an issue, or a toilet that's had an issue, or a washing machine, or a dishwasher, or a shower?" Just like, just like the main water areas in a house.
Most people are gonna know of one or two of those things off the top of their head, and each one of those things has roughly a 75% chance of there being a hidden mold problem there. Hmm. Now, the question just isn't is there a problem. The, the real question is how significant is it, and how does it rank in the scheme of other problems that might exist, which is then where we kinda went towards that return on exposure concept, right?
Like, just 'cause you have a problem, it might not be the same level of problem as the one over here in the other room. So if I gotta pick one, I'm gonna pick the one in the other room that's way more impactful, right? Sure. And so that's where, like, data comes into play. So if you just do, like, this inventory of yourself before you even- Mm-hmm
go out and get a test- Yeah ... you'll have a pretty good idea if, if, if it's, if it's a possibility. Then the dust test is a super easy screening tool to come in before you want to invest in a company, you know, like mine, which is not super inexpensive, right? It's like- Mm-hmm ... several thousand dollars to go through the process.
Sure. So you... The dust test is a few hundred bucks. It's an at-home super easy test kit, and it's like, "Hey, this is your load of mold. Here's how many are toxin producers. Here's..." And it just, like, breaks it all down for you so you can have an understanding of kinda what your state looks like. And then from there, you decide.
You know, it's like, "Hey, do I wanna dig into this more? Do I not wanna dig into this more?" And you kinda go through that path. And it'll just, it allows people to get more clarity coming in so you don't feel like you're digging into something, one, without, like, a lot of Understanding, like I think like when you get into this process, because you're dealing with something that's invisible effectively, it's really important to have a good understanding, like conceptually of like how it works and why it works and why it's important.
Because you're inherently gonna keep feeling this feedback just from yourself of like, "God, can it really be like that significant of an issue? I don't see anything." And so your mind is gonna be questioning it constantly because your mind just relies on eyesight for pretty much 95% of everything. Sure.
And if you don't see it, it's gonna immediately downplay it and not think it's important. And so having like the understanding of how it works or the lab data that's supporting it, where you say, "Hey brain, the data says it's here." So we know that labs are things for viruses, so why can't a lab be a thing for this, right?
Right. And you start like, you wanna start like tricking your brain into accepting something when you put it in the framework of something that it already understands. So like if your brain understands that you do blood tests and it shows you if you have a marker for a problem in your body- Mm-hmm ... your brain inherently understands that laboratory testing can tell you if there's something wrong.
You now connect that to, here's laboratory testing that's telling me there's something wrong, and you're, you're connecting to the wiring function in your brain that's putting it in a framework that it understands, which then just allows people to, to just be able to progress in a way without like this constant internal struggle.
So I was, I was... The brain component is so interesting when you're dealing with like complicated things, because you kinda have to like prep yourself in a way to get to the goal that you want to have. Like if you're like, "I wanna be in a healthy place," your brain is gonna work against you if it doesn't believe it.
Mm. So that's where like limiting beliefs and like people have to kind of address their false beliefs that they have about themselves, about different things in life. This is one of those things you have to do. And so data is like, is, is a really cool way to do that- Mm ... because you just flood your brain with indisputable proof.
And eventually, your brain and your, and your, you know, your psyche or whatever does not like to be wrong. Yes. And when it, when it hits the tipping point where now it feels like it's wrong, it changes its mind, and now it, now it thinks that's the answer. And so that's, that's how you work it. So good. I'm so glad that you spoke to all those different types and ways of getting kinda data or making sense of patterns or information in your environment.
To that point, and maybe to the person that then they wanna get a sense of how this could be showing up internally, are there tests that you like to see people get at some point in this journey to see kind of what is going on of certain lab work, like vibrant wellness tests or certain specific tests, or is it more broad?
Yeah. I mean, there's definitely some specific tests that people do get. I would, uh, kind of preface this, there's a part where we end on being, uh, understanding all the medical stuff. But I have a pretty good wrap around it from talking to so many of them. Yeah. And when someone is coming into a practice, the practice will kind of have their baseline testing panels that they look at, right?
And sometimes it includes mycotoxins in, in the body, which is a urine mycotoxin test. Sometimes it doesn't. But it might, it might include panels that are looking for inflammatory markers, like your C4A is elevated or it's looking at genetic markers like your, um, you know, MTHFR, which is one of your genetic markers.
Um, so there are things that can show current kind of body stress and/or genetic predisposition to be more, um, uh, likely to be impacted by environmental exposures. So there's certain tests like on the blood side, which are gonna be more like inflammatory panels, and then genetic side just to try to understand like HLA gene and some of these other genetic switches, um, on that stuff.
So there's a couple of those. Um, for the other kind of like mold component of it, really what I see the functional docs looking at is a combination of mycotoxin testing and really understanding the gut microbiome is a really big component of it. Sure. So those are two really big pieces that I see happen a lot.
And what we see, and, and we see this consistently a lot, if someone comes in and they've already done urine mycotoxin testing, so this is that person who's like working with their doctor already, and they've... They're like, "Yes, mold is a thing. We've figured it out. Like, it's here." We I mean every time. I, I, I mean, I don't know, 99.9% of the time for, give me a little margin of error, but every time the molds, there are molds in the home that are connecting to that toxin that's in their body.
Mm. Right? And so that part is really, really, really important to understand. And I think the, the data that we have and we're aggregating, um, it's really cool, through the dust test, we, um, we're actually aggregating data that's gonna be used for clinical trials. We're gonna have the only environmental data set that exists around this specific, around mold exposure tied to health outcomes and health conditions and stuff.
Wow. And we're gonna be presenting on it, uh, at A4M next year. Uh, and it's- What? It's gonna be really, really great. Exciting. I know. It's super- That's a big deal. Ah. It's super awesome, and it just is like having the data to tell the stories- Yes ... and to connect the dots is the thing that's gonna drive progress and stuff in the future.
And so- Ah. So needed ... we're really, really pumped about all that. Ah, well, same here. That's fantastic, and I'm sure that does, it's not a low effort thing to embark on, so fantastic work taking that on. That's amazing. Great. Okay. And then we always get to a few questions about how you're managing your own sleep, but before we get there, when people are thinking of hiring someone to come in and assess the situation, and I see commonly people getting kinda overwhelmed about all this, how much money- Yeah
is this gonna cost, who do I go to, who understands this, who doesn't, are there particular sets of criteria that you like to see for possible practitioners that could, or people to support this journey? 'Cause one thing I've seen, too, people say, "Okay, well maybe I'll just hire, like, a building biologist, and then they'll do all the things.
They'll look at the EMFs, and they'll look at the, you know, the mold, et cetera." Is that maybe not the correct direction to go in with something so pervasive and all-encompassing? Do we really need particular specialized training, and if so, are there, like, certifications or things we should be looking for?
It's a very good question. I'll make a comparison across the line 'cause I think- Yeah ... if people are looking, let's say God forbid you or somebody you know has a cancer concern, right? You're not going to your general practitioner to solve your cancer problem. Yes. Right? You're not doing that. You're not going to somebody who is a multidisciplinary person- Mm-hmm
who's just gonna also be handling my cancer problem, but I'm also really good at irritable bowel syndrome. Like, you're not, like- It... Yes ... like, you're not going to that person. Mold in a home is the same type of issue as a cancer issue in that it can spread, it's hidden, it's, it's very specialized, right? And so with that, immediately I would...
It's, it's specialists only in my opinion. Yeah. Like, if I have a cancer, I am going to specialist. And not only am I- Yeah ... going to specialist, I am going to the best possible person in the entire world to handle this thing- Yeah ... if I can, right? Yeah. And if I can't, then I'm going to the next, and I'm going to the next and...
But I- but that is my level of, of need and requirement- Mm-hmm ... from whoever is coming in. And I think that part's really important too- Yeah ... because, like my, you know, our industry, most people don't get this the right way. They just don't get it. They weren't taught the right way. They never- Yeah ... they're, they're not trying to, like, forward.
They're not research-driven. They're just like, "Oh, this is how you do it." Mm-hmm. Like, and the question about certifications is really hard because anyone could go get the certification that I have in a weekend if they want to. Mm. Right. Does that person know as much as I do about this? Absolutely not.
Absolutely not. Right? Yeah. And so it's really hard to look at, like, the letters behind the name and be like- Yeah ... "Oh, if they have this certification, then I know they're good." And I think we just see that with any doctor that we go to, right? Mm-hmm. Like, just 'cause you're a doctor doesn't mean that you know everything about doctoring, and it also doesn't mean that you're the best doctor that has that, those two letters behind their name, right?
Mm-hmm. And so I think the, the really nice thing about the age that we're in right now is you can really do, like, a lot of vetting of people on your own, um, outside of just going to Yelp and looking for four stars or five star- Mm ... four stars, five stars, right? Yes. Yeah, exactly. My, my limit is four stars on restaurants.
That's where, that's where I get- Yes. Um, and, and I think it's really important, and I always think when you're looking for someone to work with, there's a couple things that just have to align. One, they have to understand what you're trying to solve and have solved it before. Like- Yeah ... they have to have done it before.
Mm-hmm. So if I'm going to someone and be like, "Hey, I have mast cell activation syndrome, and I know that these toxins are in my body and I know that it's here," then you need to be able to give me 20 stories of people with mast cell activation syndrome that you've worked with and how their situations were different and what, and what you had to do.
Like, you need to be able to prove to me that you can do that. And if you really got into that kind of conversation with somebody, if you were, you know, kinda interviewing around and stuff- Mm-hmm ... you would find out really quickly that most people have, like, a general talk track, and then it falls apart.
Yeah. And I will say this, and I even said this at our company annual meeting, which just occurred not that long ago. Mm. For our industry- The talk tracks that are out there, uh, I don't want this to come off sounding, like, arrogant- Yeah ... because that's not what it's meant to be. Yeah. But we were the first company that was really out publicly, social media, that really grew in this way, that had the understanding of this stuff.
There are multiple people in this industry now that are literally saying the words that come out of my mouth- Mm ... constantly. They've adopted the talk tracks, which makes it even more difficult for someone then to be able to really vet through that- Sure ... because they're saying everything I say now. Mm.
And, you know, three, four years ago, it was really easy. There was nobody else talking about this stuff, so it was... I would go out, I would talk, and it would be great, and it would be whatever. And now- Yeah ... you know, anybody who's into marketing or growing their business, you look at what's working, and you kind of replicate what's working.
Mm-hmm. You do what you do. But the foundation of the how, they don't know how. Yeah. They just know how to kind of talk about it, right? Sure. And so I really, really think it's important that you're, you're digging in on whatever your goal is- Mm-hmm ... whatever your pain point is, and you know that this person has solved that problem multiple times.
And ideally, you're getting medical references to that person, where at least your doctor's like, "Well, I haven't worked with, like, I've heard of them, and yes, from what I've heard, they're, they're the best." Right? And that's, I know that that's how we're talked about, right? And, and but I think it's really important when you're dealing with very high-leverage situations, the same way if I had a cancer issue, I would want to talk to my oncologist and them be like, "No, this surgeon, like, this is the one."
Right? Mm-hmm. Like, there's one surgeon in Florida, and there's one over here, and these are the two that you go to, and they're the best, right? Like, that's what I wanna hear in the person that I'm, that I'm selecting. So that, that's really the big thing- Yeah ... that I would say, is- Yes ... really, like, vet... Like, listen, go, they, they should have content out.
They, you- they should have stuff that allows you to understand who they are before you even talk to them, like, what their process is. The other thing that I would say is- And it, and, and for so many times, the, it like people don't really, uh, they kinda let this slide, and I think it's because you're just not thinking about it it kinda has to pass the BS test And when you- Yeah
when you say something, a lot of times people will, because this person's an expert or whatever, it's like, "Oh, well that ma- that must make sense," right? Like, here's the perfect example in our industry. It's, well, we have this fog, and if you fog your house, the fog is gonna kill everything, and it gets behind the walls, and it g- it goes all these places, and it kills everything.
And the fog is great, and it's cheap, and it's an easier solution, and it's... So what do people wanna hear? People wanna hear cheaper, they wanna hear easier, they wanna hear faster. This is what everybody wants to hear. Mm-hmm. Right? And so then it's, like, wrapped in this little bow of, like, it does all of these things.
And- I feel like part of my job in what I do in content and, and communicating is to give a little bit more of kinda like the logic side of it- Mm-hmm ... so then you can be S test stuff. So like, for example, a mycotoxin is not a living thing. Mm. So how are you gonna kill it? This thing kills everything. How do you kill something that's not alive?
Tell me that. Go. Yeah. And once you have the little frame of like, "Oh, I can put this against that, and then I can stress test it" you're like- Mm-hmm ... "Oh, well this makes no sense 'cause they're telling me it's killing things." That means they fundamentally don't understand what they're going after because- Mm
this thing can't be killed. And it's just little tidbits that people can kind of use and then stress test against, right? Sure. And so, and so I think, I think those are like the two things. It's, it's, it's that, it's g- we have a way to do such great research, and then really just try to stress test and push on people, and push hard.
And if they can't answer the questions when you're pushing hard, that means they probably don't know what they're talking about. Ugh, so true. And so great that you, for so long, have been putting out tons of available content, free content that people can start to get in this conversation, see this, this entire world, and I'm sure it's gotta be frustrating for you too, seeing people like verbatim say what you're saying.
But you have this whole body of knowledge behind you- Ugh ... to be able to put these things out there. Ugh, but doing the, the good work, so we appreciate it. But yeah, taking those steps to find someone that... 'Cause also, while it might be this investment, that I, I understand people can get overwhelmed with, and yet if you're gonna do it, like doing it right the first time versus failed, you know, and just the process and how stressful that can be to go through this journey with someone that's not gonna have all the knowledge available.
And so you're likely to be spending even more in the long run potentially, right? Yeah, and it's not even just the cost, but yes. Sure. Yeah. It's the end, right? So like a, there's a lot of people that come in and they've... I, I used to do this webinar like four years ago. Um, and I, and I did this webinar 'cause I wanted to kinda like have this thing out for people, and I was doing it every week.
And, um, and one thing, one thing that I did in the webinar is I literally laid out the path that people go through before they get to us. Mm. And I laid it out to such exact, like this is exactly what happens, where people are like, "How did you know how much money I spent?" What? "How did you know how much time this took?"
Like, and, and the path for people who go down that path is they generally go towards like a Yelp or HomeAdvisor or something like that, and you're bringing in mold inspector one, who just does air samples in the middle of a couple rooms and tells you they're testing your air quality, and you're gonna know everything that goes on.
Well, I- I know we have a time limit, so I won't go why that doesn't work, but that doesn't work. Yeah. Right? Sure. And then they go back to their doctor, and their doctor is like, "Ah, your, your, your stuff isn't getting better. Your clinicals aren't getting better. I still think you have a problem in your house.
I don't think that, I don't think that it was solved by whatever happened over here." Right? So then one of two things happens. The patient either loses confidence in the doctor, which blows my mind, actually- Hmm ... when this happens because the doctor is, like, the health body expert. Like, that's the person trying to solve your core problem, and instead people will put their, they'll, they'll, like, throw their eggs in the basket of the five-star Yelp guy who they met once.
I, I... It just blows my mind, but they'll, "Well, this guy said I had no problem, so that must mean you, doctor, don't know what you're doing- Hmm ... and I'm gonna go find another doctor." It's always blown my mind, uh, that people do that, but they do. And they do it- Yeah ... because it's easier to find a new doctor- Mm-hmm
than it is to figure out what's hiding in the walls of my house and handle it, right? And again- Yeah ... people go towards the path of easy, right? Mm-hmm. And so, so there'll be that path, right? And then so let's just say they stay with the doctor. So doctor's like, "No, that didn't work. I'm still seeing stuff."
Then that same person goes to Yelp again. Literally do this every single time. They go to Yelp again, and they go find someone else, good reviews, and now this time they tell that person the story of their previous inspector- Mm-hmm ... and what their doctor is saying. And so now this new inspector coming in is like, "I have to find something."
Mm. So they come in, and at the end of their inspection, they have some sort of smoking gun bullet. Mm-hmm. "It's right here. This is it." They- Yeah ... every time. Every time they point to one thing, "This is it." And they're like, "So I gotta just cut out a little bit of your wall here and then fog your house."
Literally everything happens. And then the person's like, "Okay, I'm so excited because I found somebody who found the problem." Mm. Let me tell everybody something, like, really clear. If you're to the point where you're having, like, significant health issues, it is not one problem. Mm. Your body's meant to detox l- stuff.
Mm-hmm. It's not one. It is an overload of many- Mm-hmm ... that your body can't keep up with. So if you have something like this going on and someone's like, "I found the one or two things that are your problem," no you didn't. Yeah. You maybe found one or two things, but that is not the, the full s- breadth of the problem.
And then the issue with that for the, the homeowner at that point is they believe that. They spend about 15 grand on remediating one or two areas and fogging their house, and then Six to eight weeks later, they start having symptoms again. Ugh. Why is it six to eight weeks later? Yeah. Because when they fog your house, the fog grabs the particles that are floating around in the air, which are close to your face, and the fog pushes them all the way to the ground.
Mm. Mm. Which means that your face isn't breathing them right away. It takes time for them to recirculate and pop back up in the air. And so what'll happen is that you'll feel really better for the first six to eight weeks, like, "Oh, this is great." And then all of a sudden you won't be feeling good again.
And you're gonna think that a new problem happened in your house or something, and that's not what happened. What happened is that they hid the problem. Mm. And that's why the timeline is exact. That's why when people are like, "How do you know exactly how much time this took?" I'm like, "Because it's science."
Mm-hmm. That's how I know how much time it took, right? Mm. And so this is where, this is a path that people go down. And to your point, you're in two inspections. You're probably in about 800 bucks on the first inspection and probably around 1,500 bucks on the second inspection. And then, so that's like 23.
And then you're probably in somewhere between 10 and 15,000 on whatever remediation you did. Mm. So you're looking anywhere between 15 to 17,5 that you've dropped. Mm. That number is tight, and people have told me that I'm, like, locked into that number, basically, when they've gone through this path. So if you're doing this, you're spending the money, that's one thing.
The other thing that isn't, that we're not talking about is the amount of time that it takes for you to get from first local- Exactly. Mm-hmm ... inspector all the way to the point where you're like, "Okay, I figured it out." And that's generally, like, two years. Ugh. So you've lost two years of time. You've probably spent somewhere between 15 and 20 grand, and you're back at phase one and you're starting over again, right?
Wow. And it's just- It's so much better to get it done the right way the first time- Yes ... and to focus the right way on just the few things that need to be done, instead of doing like mass things that are a waste of your money. Well, I'm so glad you illustrated that so beautifully of that frustrating path that many find themselves going down.
It's so so wild too, just the, the approximations on the amount that can be commonly spent, or, and not even just the finances, as you pointed to, but just the experience of your existence of your life just if you're not able- Yeah ... to recover night after night, the compounding effects of all this and just, it's a lot.
And doesn't have to go that way is really what you're underscoring, so it gives us hope of the due diligence to find someone like yourself that has taken the time to really have this clear knowledge base, and can kind of Sherpa us in this experience. You know? So really important. Your friendly neighborhood mold Sherpa.
I like it. Yeah, that's right. That's exactly right. Oh, so needed. So needed. Okay. So I know this is a huge topic. I feel like we could have many, many episodes just even diving deeper, but in lieu of that, in, in the meantime, uh, every person we do bring on, we do ask them a couple questions just on how they're managing their own sleep, especially someone like yourself that I love how, like right when we were, you know, beginning all this, you're like, "This is an important area to me.
I love to dive into the data-" Mm-hmm ... and, you know, kind of finesse things, fine-tune things. So very curious how you're managing your own sleep. And so the first question is what does your nightly sleep routine look like right now? Yes. I'm actually trying to pull up my log of the things that impact my sleep the most- Yes, please
at the same time. Bring it on. So I'm, I'm, I'm gonna do that at the same time. Um, so my, my routine for sleep, so- First, I, a couple things I've said, I have to put the glasses on. Mm-hmm. Like, and I actually notice a big difference when I do it. I'm gonna start quoting stuff on my, on my glasses. So I've actually, I've actually lo- so I use WHOOP, so I like- Mm-hmm
log everything here. Great. So I have the types of glasses that have, it has your yellow shade for kinda your daytime. Then I have an orange shade, which is supposed to mimic like sunset kinda time- Mm-hmm ... like wind down time, and then I have the red shade, which is like block out all the light, right? Yes. So I log them separately.
So like if I, if I skip the orange and went straight to the red, then I'm gonna log just one of these will be just the red one only, and then if I do the other one, that's the orange one, and then I'll compound them, right? So it's interesting. So the red one, my red lens, it's a 7%, uh, increase on recovery from my red lens.
Mm. When I do the orange lens, it's a 4% recovery as well. So like for me, I, I don't know if it totally lines up that way, but when I look- Yes ... at it, I'm compounding those two things, and so that for me is like net 11%. Maybe that's not just statistically right, but that's how I look at it. So, um- Making a difference, yeah.
Yeah, so, so that's something, that's like an every, it's an easy thing, it's an everyday thing. It's something that I do. Um, another thing that has shown to have a really big impact for me is I have an Apollo unit. Mm-hmm, yep. Um, and I wear it on my ankle when I sleep- Yep ... and I put it on the sleep mode. Sure.
Apollo or like the, uh, the vibration thing wasn't an option in Whoop, so I log it as cat in bedroom. It's fun. So, 'cause I don't have a cat. I'm glad that you can speak in this code. Yeah, like I have to have my own code for my Whoop stuff- Yes ... 'cause all the things that I've been playing with don't necessarily have like an indicator in Whoop, so.
That is so funny. So cat in bedroom is plus 8% for me. That's wearing the Apollo unit at night. Um- Gives you nine lives. Yeah ... is yeah, because it gives me nine lives. So that's again, that's like a really easy one too. Like these are just things- Mm-hmm ... are super easy to do. Sure. Food, I've noticed two, two big things in food.
Yeah. One, time, time of eating. Huge. If I eat earlier in the day, like I actually would love my preference to be done eating if I could. It's just with kids and family and stuff- Yeah ... it doesn't always land like that. But like if I ate like a bigger meal at like 3:00- Mm-hmm ... or 4:00- Yep ... and then I was just done for the night.
Mm-hmm. Whenever I do that, my metrics are great. The best. Right. 100%. We see that too. Yep. So I would love to do that. So we try to like as early, be done as early as we can for dinner is, is one of the big things. The other thing is like what I'm eating, I- Mm-hmm ... noticed has like a very huge impact too. Yeah.
So like, you know, if I'm eating cleaner and I'm, you know, eating a healthier diet, it's just I, I will, I will see, not necessarily in my like, um, restorative sleep percentages as much, but in my, uh, heart rate and HRV numbers- Mm-hmm ... will be dramatically better. Yes. My res- my restorative sleep percentage doesn't really alter off of that, but like- How my body is working apparently is, like, way better.
So I'll see my HRV, like, go way high for me, and I have a, I have a very low HRV, I think- Mm-hmm ... you could tell me. Yep. My average is around 30. Sure. Um, and it fee- Like, I ... My wife is, like, 100. Yes. And my average is, like, 30. People can get really wild on this one, I know. Yeah. It can be so frustrating and confusing 'cause you just look at one other person- Yeah
you're like, "Wait a minute, like, we're doing kinda similar things. What's happening here?" And you know, one of the things that we speak with a lot of people about on the HRV topic is doing exactly what it sounds like you're doing, which is establishing, getting all this data, and then especially for HRV, establishing our own baseline and aiming to resist the temptation to compare, despair, because it can really stress us out in some cases when we start looking at other people's and where they're at.
So instead with that baseline, we've had many HRV experts on the podcast that will say things like commonly, if they have someone that has a lower baseline HRV but is able to modulate that HRV on command, that they will be more likely to kind of have the preference to go with that individual as far as their ability to impact that marker, as opposed to the person that just is naturally, you know, they're in their 20s and they're over 100 MS on their HRV, and they're, they can't quite move the needle at will.
So they're not able- Hmm ... to impact their nervous system dynamically, uh, kinda in the moment and as ... or know some of those big levers that can make a difference. So we do see that from an HRV training perspective, that commonly there can be things that we can start to identify to move that baseline in a direction that we're going for.
But I'm so glad you mentioned some of the big needle movers can ... Of course, the meal timing and type being a big one. If people are in the game of HRV, and if they do wanna see where they're stacking up-
Both Whoop and Oura have some good, uh, information out about within their user base where you might fall. So they'll release based on gender, age, and kind of get a sense of what's out there per wearable, so we can see where we are. But then even beyond that piece, then lots of stuff that we can do to move the needle.
Some of the best research we have, it doesn't mean at all that this is the only thing to do, but we have lots of research, uh, around movement and how exercise and different types of exercise, and also the strategy around it with the sufficient rest in between and, uh, you know- Mm-hmm ... kind of fine-tuning that.
That is the most data with HRV, naturally, but that does not by any means mean that that's the only way or that we've, have done all the work to understand some of the other things that can make a difference. Another one under there is biofeedback being a big one. You really identified the, the meal timing piece, temperature piece being a big one, but we can go down the rabbit hole, so I love that you're in that conversation 'cause not everyone is even measuring this, so really important.
It's really interesting. What do you... I'm just curious, like- Yeah ... what do you think are the biggest, like, leverage- Like, actions or to, to improve sleep, I guess. 'Cause like I'm, you know, I'm tracking just the things that I'm doing. Sure. But are there things that are like just kind of fundamentally known to be bigger movement levers?
Yes, yes. Oh my gosh, how much time do you have? Um I'll try to make it short. So the overarching framework that we use at Sleep is a Skill is really based around circadian rhythm entrainment, and not because... And sometimes we've had kind of maybe the same levels of frustration that you might have when people will kind of just be spouting the tracks around mold.
We hear that with sleep, and so people will spout these tracks. And they might say, "Oh, okay, so circadian rhythm sh- that's just for people with circadian rhythm disorders?" No, it is not. Every single person has, uh, rhythms, biorhythms, and w- I think we're in a really exciting time when we look at quantum biology, circadian rhythm, and chronobiology, and all the ways that these rhythms are showing up in our overall wellness results.
And certainly, you know, sleep is a cool one to measure, like a, you know, running report card every single night of where things are at. But, you know, not just to, "Oh, yay, I got good stats," but to live a great life, you know? So by day. So the entrainment framework that we do, it's number one, light/dark because it makes the biggest difference to zeitgebers, and zeitgebers, German for time givers.
And so those make the biggest difference to the strength of our circadian health. So I love that you identified the darkness piece with the- Mm-hmm ... blue blockers and really optimizing our environment for that optimal tons of light by day and darkness by night. So we're really going for that, and we're going for that consistency, so sleep-awake timing really being pretty dialed in.
And we're even getting more research about that within the last couple years, of the importance of that. Mm-hmm. So sleep regularity. So you're choosing a wake-up time that's around seven days a week the same, plus or minus around 30 minutes, so that becomes your anchor. And then your pair... So say if it's, whatever, 7:00 AM, and then right at that around 7:00 AM time, you're kind of up and outside as quickly as possible.
No sunglasses, hats. Getting it both in your eyes and in the photoreceptors on your skin. And starting to leverage kind of the physics of light. You can use the My Circadian app to kind of understand more about sunrise, UVA, UVB. Gets all into the weeds on some of the benefits with these. But so starting even just the bare minimum, starting with that consistent wake-up time paired with what's known as sunlight anchoring to anchor and strengthen our circadian health.
Then if we've got bright, bright days, dark, dark nights, then we're going over into temperature timing, 'cause our bodily temperature shifts throughout the course of the day and into the night. So we're looking to kind of support that rising by day and markedly dropping by night. So really cool sleep environments, cooling mattress toppers we see make a big difference, especially with HRV.
And then you're moving into things like meal timing, meal type, and you might have seen too, like, uh, with Oura and Dexcom, they've partnered up to the tune of around 75 million to demonstrate how metabolism and sleep are so interconnected. So now you can overlay your glucose data with your sleep data. So like I've got my CGM on right now, and it's cool.
So it threads on through to Oura Ring. Very cool. Yeah, and even with WHOOP or I love WHOOP, then you can play with these... Because now in the last like year and a half, you can use CGMs without a prescription in the United States, which is a nice add-on or nice addition that we used to not have, and they're much more affordable now.
Mm. So that's exciting. Definitely recommend doing that. Then you get into exercise timing, exercise type, uh, thought timing, thought type, and of course, that one's a really interesting one. Thoughts exist on, well, we appear to have evidence on their own kind of rhythms and circadian rhythm. The thought thing.
Mm-hmm. I feel like, I feel like now you're on my pod, so I'm sorry- Sorry. I said I... I know I wanna- ... if it's on thoughts ... I know I said we'd be respectful of your time in here, you know? Uh, 'cause I'm like a wind-up toy when I start talking about sleep. I'm like, "La, la, la." I'm the, I'm the same way. Yeah. Well, so this is really interesting.
So I actually, I brought this up to my wife the other day. So I've, I've had to work late some nights, which I have always tried to not do. Yeah. Um, but there's just like I just had to get stuff done. I'm like, "I have to work late." So I'll like put on my like orange ones- Mm-hmm ... 'cause I still need to see a little bit.
So like I can't do the red ones, but like the orange ones, so I'm kind of blocking some stuff. But then, um, I notice that my percentage of restorative sleep was like way higher on the nights that I was working later. Hmm. And I'm like, I'm like, "This is weird." Like, so my overall time of sleep was down- Mm-hmm
which is that sleep debt is building. Yep. And like I can definitely feel like I might be feeling tired after like two or three days of that or something. Sure. But then I would look at those days, and so my average is around 50% restorative, uh- Mm-hmm ... sleep is my average, and I'd be like 67% or like 80% or something.
It's like- It's like, is staying up and working late actually better for me to do? But then if I'm doing that That then would affect consistent wake time because I wouldn't be able to wake up as early 'cause I would still need to balance this, but I still have to get up for the kids. And then all of a sudden, like, all the formulas started going in my head, and I broke.
Yes. I was like, what should... Like, what do I do? Yeah. Yeah. It's like- But w- But when you said thought, that was really interesting- Yeah ... 'cause when I'm working, like, I'm in a different, like, thought space, right? Is it- Totally ... is that what... And is that part of what drives, you know, the, those kind of differences, I guess?
Yeah. Well, that could potentially, and it was definitely we wanna still extract more data to see certain trends for you. But that would look at two different buckets. So one, the thought timing piece for sure, which is a whole fascinating, huge topic, and also timing and sleep drive. So there can be some cases, uh, and we'd have to dive into your data a bit more, but in many cases, one of the things we see is people having ample sleep opportunity for themselves, and that sometimes having benefits by actually staying up a little bit later, and it can seem counterintuitive, w- but then you're building up sufficient sleep drive.
So by the time that you... And this is kind of demonstrated by mounting adenosine levels. And so this adenosine pressure is building up, building up, so by the time you actually do get into bed, you are out, and then tend to be really out the entire night, or for many people. And so then you're having the opportunity to get into some of that richer, deeper levels of sleep.
So we can see that commonly, and it can be so counterintuitive 'cause we might think, "Oh, no, I'm really prioritizing my sleep, taking care of things, and I'm going to bed nice and early." And yet sometimes that can backfire, and that's actually one of the reasons why with, for instance, insomnia, difficulty falling asleep, staying asleep, counter to what people might think, sleep compression is one of the first tools that we can often use.
And it is demonstrated by staying up a little bit later, and then we're building up sleep efficiency, so the amount of time that people are in bed asleep- Mm-hmm ... as opposed to kind of, like, languishing in bed. And we're looking to get those ideally from optimized perspective into high 80s, low 90s or so percent sleep efficiency.
And then we can kinda keep playing with the time in bed. But then for thought timing, yes, this can get layered. So I would say a few things. One, in most cases, for most people, you know, you might find yourself kind of in this flow state and just, you know- Mm-hmm ... doing all the things and what have you. But usually we find if we keep that up, and if we keep ourselves activated in kinda that beta brain state, that activated state, and then have the expectation of the body and mind being able to be upregulated and then turn off and shift into deep sleep, that might be a challenge to do night after night after night.
Yeah. And so then we can start seeing things spill over, kinda like you're speaking to, 'cause then we don't wanna have to move wake-up times and shuffle things. The other thing I would say about this too is thought timing, if anyone's interested in this, learning more about this study called the Mind After Midnight, we had some of the lead researchers on this on the- A podcast where they found that the types of thoughts we tend to engage in tend to be different in the wee hours of the morning.
So what they would find is more kind of black and white thinking, catastrophic thinking, flawed logic, the later you stayed up, and so sadly, suicidality rates going up in the wee hours in the morning. Just things looking and feeling bleaker- Oh ... in the wee hours. Now, you might've been in, like, this, you know, in the zone, feeling alive.
That might be a different conversation. But usually for the ability, what we're looking to do is create as much consistency as possible and giving you sufficient runway in the evening to change that brain state from all that activation to enough time to kinda wind down, so that becomes a bit of an art form there.
So- Mm ... kind of a longer conversation, we'd wanna see more data, too, to see, you know, what else could be at play. Yeah, super interesting. My, my wife was like, "Well, maybe it's 'cause you got everything out of your head that you needed to get out of your head, and then you were just able to sleep." Ooh, real quick, uh, beautiful, I love that she said that.
So one thing we do see, and there's lots of research with this with, uh, things like cognitive behavioral therapy for insomnia, CBTI, or ACT- Mm ... acceptance commitment therapy for insomnia, is the need for a brain to have this sort of completion, so closing loops on all these open loops. So- Mm-hmm, mm-hmm ... yes, if you have had certain things that just were open and kinda plaguing you, feeling overwhelmed or all of that, and then you took those steps to close those loops, oof, the brain loves that.
Love, love, loves. Mm. So there could be... Now, I'm not trying to encourage 9:00 PM emails or what have you all the time, but largely, we like to see can we, for most of the time, even just get into the habits of kinda brain dumps or planning out the next day. We've got a very strong calendar line-up, and we start to trust our word that we'll fulfill on those things.
So we just feel like we have a plan and things are handled. That can make a huge difference for ability to kinda turn off, so I love her theory. That's very cool. So that's one. Yeah. I have an AI- project or agent built that's called Brain Dump. Ooh. Where- Love it ... I can just talk about, like, all the things I need to get out, and it organizes it, summarizes it, tags it, does everything I need for it so I could come back to it, and I know I can get it.
So that's kinda nice. Um, but the other thing, just tying into that, so, like, the things that work, e- that I was needing to do, it's all very, like, project completions. So, so I'm, like, I will not answer e- Like, I, I have no interest in answering emails and doing, like, mundane stuff at night. But, like, if I'm, like...
And it's kind of what you were saying, like, you have these big things that you're trying to close up and, like, these projects and these things. Like, that's always- Yeah ... kind of what it's been. It's like I'm sitting here, I'm like, "I just need to get this part done. If I get this part done, then I, then I'm at, like, a stopping point."
It almost feels like when I used to when I was young, like a kid, and I used to play video games. Like, if I could- Yes ... just get to level, the end of this level- Yes ... then I can stop. Yes. But I can't stop till I get to the end of the level, and that's, like, what it feels like. Yes. Well, I love it. But it's also kind of the, the plight of high achievers and...
You know, I work with a ton of high-stakes poker players, high performers, entrepreneurs, et cetera, and I am a very obsessive personality as well, so I understand the- Yes ... the, you know, you gotta bite, you know, that or scratch the itch or whatever the sayings are, so I get it. Yeah. So good. Okay. Well, before I start, you know, taking us into 9 million tangents, I'll try to bring us back.
The next question would be, what might we see in your morning, quote, unquote, "sleep," sleep routine? We're still on the questions. I forgot. You're like, "Oh my God, I thought we're done." Okay. All right. I'll, I'll, I'll zoom us through this. Don't worry. What's the next question, then? Okay, the next one is your morning sleep routine with the idea that how we start our day can impact our sleep.
So I will say this. I don't know if it's, like, sleep related, but it's how I, it's how I kinda, s- it's not enter the day, but it's, it's kinda like how my day kicks off. If I don't have time for myself in the morning- Mm ... I am... It's a bad day, and it's, uh, it's like starting off on a bad foot, and I really have to, like, try to, like, bring it back.
But my attitude isn't as good. I'm, like, shorter, like, and I notice it. So, you know, I have two kids. I have a four-year-old and a seven-year-old, and so I need, I know that I need time for myself before they wake up. I have to have- Yeah ... like, if I wake up to a, to a child- As much as I love them- Yes ... and I will do whatever they need me to do, my day is off on, like, a very weird, uncomfortable start- Mm-hmm
basically. Yeah. So, um, I, I wake up on my workout days at 5:00 and I'll work out in the morning. So my workouts are always first thing in the morning. I work out if, if like within 15 minutes of waking up, I'm working out. Um, and then if I'm not working out, I will still wake up early before they get up. So maybe instead of waking up at 5:00, I'll wake up at, like, 5:30 or 5:40 or something, um, and give myself some time before I have to start making their lunches and making their breakfast and all that stuff.
So like, if I have to wake up and just start doing stuff- Yeah ... that, where I don't have, like, me time, that's, like, a really big thing that I notice in how I enter the day. Oh, so good. Yeah, we had a guest that said it, some version of slow mornings being one of the greatest luxuries in life, and I, I, I love it.
Sure. Right? Yeah. I, I agree. But yeah, well said. It s- really can set that tone. Okay, and then the third question would be what might we visually see on your nightstand or in your sleep environment? Yeah, so, um, there's not a lot on my nightstand. There's some things you probably will roll your eyes at- ... but I have a, I have a monitor for my kid, which is gonna be- Oh, okay.
You know, five, five- I thought it w- well, I was gonna- ... question if it was, like, a computer monitor. I'm like, "Wait, what?" No, no, no, no. Okay. No, it's, like- Got it ... it's like EMF and like wi- I get it. Huge. But, like, I gotta... You know, if he's crying, I gotta be able to get there. So I got- I understand ... I got a monitor in there for that.
Sure. My phone is there, but it's on airplane mode and it's face down so I never see the lights light up or whatever. So it's charging. Yeah. And then the only other thing on my, um, uh, on my nightstand is a Kindle. Hmm. It's actually because at some point in time we... So my wife and I used to watch TV at night before we went to bed.
Yeah. And at one point, I don't know why or how this happened, but we both shifted to reading before we went to bed. Mm-hmm. Yeah. And just such a, such a big difference. Ah. It's just so much better. So nice. So I will, I will read until I start falling asleep while I'm reading, which depending on when I walk in the room, could be two pages.
Yes. And then I'll go back a page in the Kindle so I for- don't forget everything that I was half-reading while asleep, and then I close it and I stick it on the side. Mm. But, like, it's actually, like, my wife's morning routine is reading too. So her- Yeah ... she has a Kindle on hers. Love that. So she will wake up, she does her own stuff that she does, but one thing that she does is right when she wakes up, she has the Kindle and she reads some to, like, ease into her day a little bit.
Great. I love that. What a great kind of bookends, you know, to- Yeah ... yeah, the ease, the, to fall asleep and to wake up. That's beautiful. Mm-hmm. Okay, and then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest difference to how you're kind of thinking about your sleep, or said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep?
The data is the thing. Yeah. Like, if you don't have it, then you don't know, right? Yeah. So, like, I, I mean, I feel like it's almost a cheating answer. Like- Mm ... like I could see things, so now it's the biggest aha 'cause I can see things. Yeah. But I think what that ultimately does- Is it, it kind of starts, even if it's subconsciously, sort of training you to be aware of certain things a little bit more- Yeah
to the point where, like I said earlier, like I know when I need to put those glasses on now. Mm-hmm. Like, like just like some things, and then having like the reinforcement feedback of plus 7% when I wear the reds and 4% when I wear the oranges. It's like I feel this. I know that this is gonna help me later.
Let me put these things on right now instead of being lazy and not going upstairs 'cause I don't want to, right? And so I, I think having like the feedback loop is really the thing that just makes it so much easier to, to be able to make, you know, thoughtful decisions on stuff. Yeah, I mean, it makes all the sense, and how you beautifully spoke to this with the environmental piece of getting all that data can help make it real to take action and better- Yeah
your life. And same rules can often apply in things like sleep and health, so beautiful. Okay, so I'm sure people have, you know, in the listening to everything you've shared, it's very clear the demonstration of wild amounts of knowledge in this area. So how can they either work with you, learn from you, be a part of your world, all the, those things?
Yeah, so our company is called We Inspect, so our, our website is yesweinspect.com. Um, if you're interested in what an inspection looks like and want like free calls to talk through how that would work for you. So if you feel like it's something you wanna explore, that's there, so it's easy. The dust test was the other thing I mentioned, so this is, this is another, um, an at home test kit that we created.
And it was the test kit we talked about. That's thedusttest.com. And then as far as like getting into the world a little bit, um, you know, Instagram, there's stuff daily going on up there, and then my podcast is called Mold Finders Radio. And, um, it's getting updated not as much as it used to right now 'cause I'm reworking what my whole structure for the pod is.
But there's- Okay ... 200 and something episodes on there, so there's a whole lot to dig into on stuff. Um, and yeah, those are places where people can like to hear me ramble. There's plenty of it, so... Same over here. Yeah. So good. Well, I mean, you're, you're rambling some gold, my friend, so really important stuff, doing great work.
And I just so appreciate you taking the time. I'm sorry we did keep you over a little bit longer, but it, you know, just really I think can make a difference for people listening, so absolutely follow Brian. In the show notes, we'll have all his information so that you can make sure you're staying abreast of all these different things that can just so measurably make a difference both in our data, so the objective experience, and then the subjective experience of how you're feeling day in, day out.
So thanks so much, Brian, really appreciate it. Thanks for having me and letting me talk for as long as I did. I appreciate it. Yes. I loved it. And hopefully somebody got something out of it. That's so good.
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