Dr Shereen Lim is a Perth-based dentist and among the first in Australia to complete a postgraduate qualification in Dental Sleep Medicine. She began her career working with adults with snoring and sleep apnea but soon recognized that many of these problems had their roots in childhood and could often be lessened or delayed through earlier identification and management. This insight inspired her focus on children’s airway health, where she now works in tongue-tie management and early interceptive orthodontics to promote healthy breathing, sleep, and growth. She is the author of Breathe, Sleep, Thrive: Discover How Airway Health Can Unlock Your Child’s Potential, a book that has reached families and professionals worldwide. Dr Lim is passionate about promoting integrative care and raising awareness of children’s airway health as the foundation for thriving health and vitality.
Dr Shereen Lim is a Perth-based dentist and among the first in Australia to complete a postgraduate qualification in Dental Sleep Medicine. She began her career working with adults with snoring and sleep apnea but soon recognized that many of these problems had their roots in childhood and could often be lessened or delayed through earlier identification and management. This insight inspired her focus on children’s airway health, where she now works in tongue-tie management and early interceptive orthodontics to promote healthy breathing, sleep, and growth.
She is the author of Breathe, Sleep, Thrive: Discover How Airway Health Can Unlock Your Child’s Potential, a book that has reached families and professionals worldwide. Dr Lim is passionate about promoting integrative care and raising awareness of children’s airway health as the foundation for thriving health and vitality.
SHOWNOTES:
😴 Why is snoring a red flag in children?
😴 Could mouth breathing quietly affect facial development?
😴 How might poor nasal breathing impact sleep quality?
😴 Could ADHD symptoms sometimes overlap with breathing problems?
😴 Why might crooked teeth signal underdeveloped jaws?
😴 Could allergies be triggering your child’s mouth breathing?
😴 Why does tongue function matter for healthy breathing?
😴 How can breastfeeding support early jaw development?
😴 Could teeth grinding point toward nighttime breathing issues?
😴 Why shouldn’t parents ignore restless sleep or bedwetting?
😴 Could better jaw development prevent future sleep problems?
😴 Why should parents trust their gut intuition early?
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Book: https://breathesleepthrivebook.com/
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DISCLAIMER:
The information contained in this podcast, our website, newsletter, and the resources available for download are not intended to be medical or health advice and shall not be understood or construed as such. The information contained on these platforms is not a substitute for medical or health advice from a professional who is aware of the facts and circumstances of your individual situation.
Welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. My name is Mollie Eastman. I am the founder of Sleep Is a Skill, a company that optimizes sleep through technology, accountability, and behavioral change. As an ex-sleep sufferer turned sleep course creator, I am on a mission to transform the way the world thinks about sleep.
Each week, I'll be interviewing world-class experts ranging from researchers, doctors, innovators, and thought leaders to give actionable tips and strategies that you can implement to become a more skillful sleeper. Ultimately, I believe that living a circadian-aligned lifestyle is going to be one of the biggest trends in wellness, and I'm committed to keeping you up to date on all the things that you can do today to transform your circadian health and, by extension, allowing you to sleep and live better than ever before
And welcome to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast. What if your child's snoring, mouth breathing, restless sleep, or even challenges with attention are telling you something bigger? Today, I'm joined by Dr. Shareen Lim, dentist, dental sleep medicine expert, and author of Breathe, Sleep, Thrive. After years of treating adults with snoring and sleep apnea, she began asking an important question: What if we could recognize the signs much earlier?
In this episode, we uncover the connection between breathing, tongue function, jaw development, and sleep, and the subtle signs parents may be overlooking. Dr. Lim shares why problems that show up in adulthood can begin much earlier, what parents should be watching for, and how supporting healthy airway development from childhood could change the trajectory of sleep and health.
If your child snores, sleeps restlessly, breathes through their mouth, or sometimes simply feels off, this is a conversation you will want to hear. Share it with a parent who needs this information, and stay curious about what those seemingly small signs might actually be telling you. Remember, sleep is a skill that you can train.
And welcome to the Sleep is a Skill podcast. I am very excited for our guest today. She is joining us all the way across the globe. It is quite early for her, so we give her a kind of kudos for taking the time, and, you know, and waking up with us today. So Shireen, thank you so much for being here. Yeah, no, thanks very much for having me.
It's been a little while- Um- ... but, that I've been, um, keen to chat with you, so- Yeah. Oh, I know. It's happened. Me too, and thanks for, yeah, making this work and all of it. It, it means a lot, and I know you've got some really exciting information to share with us, and I shared with you too that just one real missing of this podcast is that we have not done enough at all around kids and sleep.
And it needs to absolutely be an effort going forward. Mm-hmm. So you can kind of be help, or be a part of this kickoff. So before we get at all there, maybe just start at the basics of how did you find yourself as an expert in this area? Yeah. It was around 15 years ago, my husband's snoring. So it was driving me pretty crazy.
That'll do it. Got out of bed one night and decided to research about dental sleep appliances, or mandibular advancement devices- Mm-hmm ... knowing these devices worn during sleep could help open the airway and help people with snoring. Mm. And so I decided I was going to enroll in Australia's first postgraduate diploma in that area so that I could help myself and help other spouses in the same boat.
Um, so that's how I became involved in adults' snoring and sleep apnea. Started with adults, and then I started to think, wow, this is, uh, really helping people's quality of life when we can actually improve their sleep. Mm. Um, and yet we're using this Band-Aid solution to compensate for poor jaw development.
Uh- Yeah ... how can we get people to sleep better through growing their jaws better in the first place? Mm. When we're talking dental school, you can do early interceptive treatment to help bring the lower jaw forward. Uh, uh, you can do early interceptive orthodontics to grow the jaws. Mm. And that wasn't really happening.
We would refer patients for, to orthodontics, and they would actually say, "Oh, let's just watch and wait." Mm. And so every year seeing children, not intervening. Um, and then I came across Dr. Christian Guimaraes' research- Oh, yeah ... where palate expansion- Mm ... that could actually help children's breathing. And I decided that with my own children, I wanted to learn more in this area.
Mm. And so I actually met Dr. Christian Guimaraes first time in 2014, uh, when he was in Australia. I said, "Your work has really inspired me to learn more on palate expansion." And he said, "If you're doing palate expansion, you're too late." And I had no idea what that meant at the time. What? But now I understand.
Okay. Form follows function Got it. Yeah And we need to pay attention, um, in the first six years of life when the jaws are growing most rapidly- Mm ... to, uh, have good oral function. So good nasal breathing, good tongue function, good sucking, swallowing, and breathing, and chewing to help promote good jaw development.
So that's why I've now moved away from adult snoring and sleep apnea to manage children's facial development, uh, and treat oral dysfunction from the earliest years of life- Oh ... uh, including tongue-tie management from infancy. Yeah. Man, I wish you were around for when I was little, and so I'm not dealing with the ramifications of a long life with a tongue tie and all these things.
Mm-hmm. Because you're right, like, catching it at the beginning before all of this dysfunction has presented itself, I mean, that is absolutely the direction we need to go. Okay. Real quick, how's your husband's snoring? Is he doing better there? Yeah, you know, he's had to incorporate a lot of different techniques.
Yeah. But at the end of the day, really I do think that palate expansion, adult palate expansion has- Yes ... a very, um, pivotal role- Mm ... a central role to help restore people's sleep and breathing. Mm. It really does, um, help open up the nasal pass- passages- Mm ... helping to promote nasal breathing as well as making tongue space.
Um, but right now- Great ... we don't have really good operators here. Mm. Um, so that is a problem for a lot of people- Sure ... uh, when we talk about precision sleep medicine for obstructive sleep apnea and snoring. Yeah. And so, yes, I think- I would love to see him sleep and breathe better. Mm-hmm. Uh, and that would be a really important intervention.
Yeah. And so we have to bandage around that at the moment, including the use of CPAP. Yeah. Very- Um, but really we need to promote this good jaw development from the earliest years of life. Yeah. So true. Okay, so starting there, earliest years of life, if someone's listening and they- they've got kids of their own or they're planning to have kids, how are you thinking differently or helping to educate how people can look at this through, like, maybe a new lens?
What should they be looking for? I really think that people need to recognize that obstructive sleep apnea, it's really an end-stage problem. It's the most severe breathing condition. Uh- Mm-hmm ... and there's a progression of breathing disturbances that occur before then. Sure. So even though, um, you know, 85% of people haven't been diagnosed with obstructive sleep apnea, 85% of people that have it, sorry, haven't been diagnosed- Mm.
Yes ... that's really just the tip of the iceberg, 'cause there's quite a lot of other problems that are lesser that can impact our sleep quality and our quality of life. Yes. Uh, and really, snoring, t- um, the sound of vibration of air as it passes through our, um, airway, that is a key red flag that breathing- Mm
is being interrupted. Um- Okay ... so recognizing snoring as a sign. Um, so in children, for instance, um- Yes ... snoring, you know, we know that there- there's increased risk of behavioral and learning difficulties. And so helping parents to understand that, uh, we shouldn't ignore children snoring, but even if we go back, it's mouth breathing.
Problem starts when mouth breathing begins. Um, so the moment that we become mouth breathers, it starts a whole chain of events that actually can lead to poor airway development, um- You know, as we grow older. Sure. So recognizing that we need to promote airway health, uh, which is really nasal breathing day and night.
Uh, and when we can promote that early on in the earliest years of life when the facial structures are growing, uh, we can promote good nasal, uh, good airway structure- Mm ... and airway function, and so airway health. I think we need to pay attention to healthy breathing. Yeah. Mm. I don't know why this just had me think of this, but, um, even from a perspective of sometimes we're like, "Yeah, yeah, yeah, but, you know, I'm busy and my kids are driving me nuts," and whatever.
Mm-hmm. Um, and, and they might just, "Yeah, that, that's n- nice, but I'm sure they're fine," or something. The belittling of this information, I feel like often it's not registered just how far-reaching this can be, even, um... So we were chatting about some of our kind of mutual, like, people in similar fields. And, and one of the kind of cross points was this event at Stanford, and one of the things they were pointing to was beauty and breathing, and beauty and breathing- Mm
so the components of how your children will grow and how they will look- Mm ... being impacted, how their cognition being impacted, potential correlations or possible correlations with things like ADHD and just- Mm ... this spidering of things that people maybe aren't aware of- Mm ... that could be linked. What do you see there?
Are there a lot of really kind of interesting things that can come about if we don't treat this? Yeah, definitely. I mean, if we recognize nasal breathing is the optimal way to breathe, you know, the, the nose is designed for that, to warm, filter, humidify the air. We get the nitric oxide from the paranasal sinuses, uh, to really help i- improve oxygen exchange, and it helps us give our most restorative sleep.
Um, but when we have mouth breathing, um, there's so many other problems that we can have, whether it be increased risk of dental disease, um, you know, we have more, uh, problems with other myofunctional disorders when the mouth is not working properly 'cause we have this lowered, um, muscle tone in, in our face- Yeah
mouth open, tongue hanging down. So that can be a catapult into other issues like picky eating- Mm ... speech articulation issues, and other issues where people are getting treatment but really not having that underlying, um, oral rest posture, um- Mm ... addressed. Yes. Um, behavioral problems like you say. Even, like, mouth breathing, there's increased risk of emotion, uh, sensory processing disorders.
Yeah. And just many other problems associated with mouth breathing there reg- Current ear infections, the increased risk of asthma. So there's a lot of things that are out there that nobody is recognizing. We need to promote early, uh, nasal breathing. Yeah. Thank you for that. Yeah, so important. Okay. So assuming people are hearing this and saying, "Oh, wow, okay, it sounds like this is serious.
This is something I need to address." Mm-hmm. What are some of these possible steps that they could be taking, further signs if we didn't kind of walk through- Mm-hmm ... possible, like, signs and symptoms, what do we see there as kind of a starting place? Yeah. So in terms of, um, nasal breathing, uh, we, we wanna have a clear nasal airway.
And, uh, a lot of people think that an ear, nose, and throat surgeon can help resolve all the problems. Mm. Um, so an ear, nose, and throat surgeon would typically look inside the, the, the nose and the throat to see what is inside the airway blocking, and oftentimes doing surgeries, whether it be, you know, on the se- septum or the, um, adenoids and tonsils, those type of things.
Mm. Uh, but if we look, for instance, in... There's one Brazilian study that studied preschool, uh, children and a large population, and what is the most common factor for mouth-breathing in those children, it's actually allergies. So that nasal congestion- Ooh ... uh, really trying to address that because when children have these allergies and they become a bit stuffy, they may be more prone to opening their mouth when they don't have a true obstruction.
Mm. Yeah. But I also want people to recognize that when it comes to the nasal airway, uh, the mouth or the palate has a really important structural contribution to our nasal breathing. Um, so if we have a narrow, high-arch palate, uh, we're gonna have a narrow nasal passage, and that's going to affect our nasal airf- flow.
Mm. And there's going to be increased resistance to nasal, uh, airflow, and we're going to be more prone to mouth-breathing. We're gonna have less room for the tongue, tongue's gonna be hanging low, and then we're- Mm ... also going to be having mouth-breathing. So as important as it is to have an ear, nose, and throat specialist- Yeah
check out the inside of our nose, it's really important to have a look at the outer borders which is formed by the palate. Uh- Okay ... so an orthodontic, uh, specialist or a dentist will be able to help identify whenever there is crooked teeth or overcrowding- Mm ... any orthodontic problems, that's usually a signal that there is an underdevelopment of our jaws, which includes that palate or na- nasal passage.
Mm. But in addition, we also need to look at the muscle tone because sometimes- Yeah ... if we have our mouth open, um, you know, that can be a habit from not- Being able to use our nose well. Um, and that can actually contribute to the issue. And even if we have our tongue down, we're more likely to, um, mouth breathe as well.
Mm. So at the end of the day, even if we've addressed the structure of that nasal passage through clearing out things from the inside of the nose and throat, and through modifying the jaw development through, uh, early interceptive orthodontics, we also need to promote good muscle function- Mm ... which includes closing the mouth, breathing through your nose, and having the tongue up.
Oh, yeah. So good. And how about for people that say, "Well, I bring my kid to an orthodontist, but they don't seem to know anything about these topics." Clearly you're just this wealth of information. If they don't have a you right nearby, what are some of the steps that they could take that would have someone that could even remotely be speaking to the level that you're speaking on this topic?
It's challenging because- Right ... you know, all this stuff I didn't learn in dental school. Mm-hmm. Orthodontists don't learn it, uh, necessarily. Uh- Mm-hmm ... so a lot of the people that know about it have had to learn about it outside of dental school- Yeah ... or their orthodontic specialty training. So it's really difficult, and we'll get conflicting information.
Yeah. Uh, and even sometimes professional resistance to the idea- Hmm ... that dentists and orthodontists should be involved in this area. So it makes it very difficult for people to often find, uh, adequate providers. Yeah. Um, but the American Dental Association in 2017, I'm not sure if you know Dr. Steve Carstensen.
Oh, I do know of. I haven't had the opportunity- Yes, yeah ... or the pleasure to be connected formally, but yes. Yeah, say more. Yes. So he led this initiative and, um, now the American Dental Association has a policy statement whereby dentists, uh, should be involved in the screening for these issues- Yes ... as well as involved in promoting, um, good, uh, airway development- Yeah
in children as well. So more and more people are learning about it, but how do you find it? I think, you know, when you're calling the office or start with a Google search- Yes ... um, to see d- does it look like they have some sort of awareness of airway. Mm-hmm. Um, there are directories including, uh, the American Academy of Physiological Medicine and Dentistry, the AAPMD.
Mm. Um, the Breathe Institute. Yeah. Those type of places will have very well-aligned providers. Yeah. Um, but when calling up we wanna see, uh, do, do you have, uh, any collaboration with ear, nose, and throat doctors? Mm. Um, do you refer to myofunctional therapists? Do you do or refer for early interceptive orthodontics for, for young children?
Um- Yeah ... and those type of questions will give you some sort of insight as to how on board, um-
Y- the dental team would be Yeah, that's very wise. I love that you mentioned Breathe Institute. We were chatting about how for me, I went to Dr. Zaghi for my tongue tie release and to get the nasal treatment for my deviated septum with him. So certainly Breathe Institute can be one and, but you're right, like really needing to, as of right now, take some steps to make sure that we're finding someone that can really speak this language, 'cause unfortunately it takes a lot of extra legwork on your part.
Yeah. And Mollie, uh, you know, you've, you've, are familiar with my book Breathe, Sleep and Thrive. Really- Yeah ... I wrote that 'cause, um- Yes ... you know, it is different. Like it, I, it took me about six years to write. When I first- Mm ... wrote it, it was mainly because I was doing the adult treatment, uh, and I wanted to, to help parents learn that- We have some influence over their future trajectory of growth and sleep.
Yeah. And so that book can be a really good one for parents to actually understand what it is we're trying to do, and what are the various pathways, and have some information so they know what questions to ask for p- uh, if they're finding providers as well. Uh, 100%. Yes, 'cause that's gonna be such an important tool and resource guiding parents along the way.
I've got your book in front of me, and some of the things that I think were really great that you called out, common issues children experience such as snoring, poor attention and concentration, ADHD symptoms, difficulty with emotional regulation, recurrent ear infections, speech or feeding concerns, teeth grinding, crooked teeth, and more can often be symptoms of bigger underlying problems.
So, you know, your book can help kind of break this down, make this understandable, guide us, and also just further educate on the why that we wanna take these steps, 'cause some of the things that we'll see even, you know, with adults aren't even dealing with all that can come with kids, getting disheartened or just not quite knowing what steps to take.
And so having something like this can just be so important so that you don't get stopped along the way. 'Cause sometimes it does take multiple steps to find the providers for you, and people that can really make a difference here. Yeah, definitely. And it's really never one solution for everybody. Yeah.
It's a multifactorial issue. Even something like nasal breathing, as we mentioned, it's the inside of the nose and throat. The outer borders with the jaws and the- Yes ... muscles as well. So oftentimes it will involve multiple steps. Uh, so it, it helps parents to, uh, really understand that, and give them some direction- Yeah
if they're struggling to find providers. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, this is just crazy how you're one of Australia's first dentists, like you said, to obtain this qualification in dental sleep medicine. I mean, has it gotten better over the years? Are you still the lone ranger over there? What's going on? No, in terms of, um, dental sleep medicine, it's largely talking about adult snoring and obstructive sleep apnea and these- Yeah
dental devices that bring the jaw forward. Yes. Uh, but really- There's more and more dentists that are doing that, but I do think that dental sleep medicine dentists have a much more wider role, um, that they can play. And I don't know, do you know Audrey Yoon, Dr. Audrey Yoon, orthodontist? I do know of her, but again, I'd love to have her- Yeah
on the podcast too, yeah. So, so what she's done is she's set up this, uh, World Dentofacial Sleep Society. Mm. And really she's got p- the dental sleep medicine, um, associations from various countries, uh, all joining together, and the focus there is not just these mandibular advancement splints for adults, it's really recognizing that we need good jaw development.
Yeah. Uh, so looking at early intervention, looking at palate expansion, looking at the role of jaw surgeries, because there are jaw surgeries, not just adult expansion, but bringing the jaws forward- Yeah ... um, that can actually really help play a role to not just help bandage those nighttime problems and help people breathe during sleep, uh, better, but to actually reestablish, uh, airway health, to promote nasal breathing, to promote good jaw, uh, airway structure and function day and nighttime.
Um- Mm ... so really, uh, dental professionals have this big role, and where I want to, uh, really help change things is to not look at these band-aid solutions, um- Mm ... these mandibular advancement devices. Yeah. I think that we really need to be looking at, uh, promoting good airway structure, even for adults. We want patients to have options, um, to be able to de- develop things well and have that healthy breathing around the clock.
Mm. Uh, and really understanding that our earliest, uh- opportunity to unlock better breathing is from infancy. Yeah. So yes, I think am I a lone ranger? Uh, well, there's a lot more people that are fully on board with it. Um- Thank you ... and I have a lot of support really, 'cause sometimes you do get- Right ... that criticism, and, uh- Mm
people want to deny that- Mm. So frustrating ... babies play a role. But yeah, right now, uh, compared to when I started many years ago, I do have a lot of support, and- Ah ... uh, encouraging. I feel like I've got a big cheerleading team. Yay. That's amazing. Yeah. Well, it's 'cause you're putting out great work, and really helping to educate.
So important. Okay. So I wonder if you can kinda take us through, like you had mentioned, it starts in infancy, so right now it's... is the onus, in most cases, on the parents to seek out these practitioners a- as young as possible to kind of ensure that we're on the right track. Like, what is your guide? Like, if you were talking to a new mother, what kind of steps should she be thinking about, like at what ages and when, and like kind of that pathway for her, or the both fam?
I don't mean to just put it on the mother, but - Yeah ... for new parents. Yeah. Uh, well, one of the things that I think is especially foundational when it comes to oral function is optimal latch. Yeah. You know, uh, and you know, not everyone can breastfeed- Sure ... uh, and not everybody wants to, but I think that really to help people to promote the mechanical benefits, as much as we know that breast feeding is really great, um, you know, nutritionally- Yeah
immunologically, uh, for that bonding, I think we don't promote the mechanical benefits. And when we don't do that, we don't allow patients to make that fully informed decision. Mm. And so really breastfeeding is, um, sometimes called nature's palate expander. Uh, we need that tongue to suction to the roof of the mouth, um, and then as it falls, that's when milk is extracted the most efficiently.
Mm. And so, uh, it actually requires the jaws, um, the lower jaw to come backwards and forwards to coordinate this effort. So it really drives the jaw development wide and forward, and- Mm ... it's a really good way to promote nasal breathing, 'cause babies can suck, swallow, and breathe all at the same time. They don't have to take- Right
the pauses, and that's when mouth breathing can begin. Uh, so a lot of the time- You know, it's ... If we really can understand the mechanical benefits- Mm ... of breastfeeding, then we need to pay more attention to the quality of it, not just- Mm ... whether or not people are having pain or good weight gain, but what is the latch like?
We wanna have optimal latch, uh- Yeah ... which is a big wide mouth, a deep latch that allows the tongue to function properly. Hmm. And what one of my recent, um, areas of interest has been is we all pay attention to the tongue. We know the tongue needs to work really well or lift well for, uh, optimal suction and breastfeeding, but I don't think we're paying enough attention to the inward pressures, um- Hmm
or the tightness of our facial muscles that can occur when we have upper lip or lower lip or cheek ties. Um- Yeah ... that tension that doesn't really allow that optimal latch. Uh- Hmm ... because what I found and, you know, as I have been managing children or infants with breastfeeding problems, I'm involved in tongue tie r- release.
And then oftentimes I'll see them as they grow older, and I've got all their faces, uh, facial photos, and I kind of document them every time I see them. What I've recognized is this facial tension, when we don't address the other- Hmm ... um, ties, that can lead to this inner tension that actually sculpts the face and doesn't allow it to grow as fully.
Hmm. So now I can look at a child and kind of, uh, work out where is this facial tension, um, and predict what ties they may have just looking at their face. Wow. And then I look at these babies that I've treated and think, "Wow, I've missed these ties." Um, so I think- For a new parent, uh, going back to your question- Sure
really recognizing that the breastfeeding, um, is a really good, uh, foundation for- Mm ... future oral development, future tongue function. Yeah. If it doesn't work well, then, uh, there may be problems down the track, um- Yeah ... with that. I wonder- So just getting in touch with a good IBCLC- Ah ... a good lactation consultant, and not all of them have training in tongue tie.
Sorry, what were you gonna say? No. Oh, no, you're just, you were getting me thinking this is on- only my self-serving thing that I was thinking was, um, I don't know what the heck happened to me because my mom, the story goes that I was breastfed until I was, like, two, like, forever, for so long. Yes. Yes. I was like, I don't know how I still ended up with a freaking tongue tie, but here we are.
Yeah. And that's what I was saying about optimal latch- It's the optimal ... because- It's the optimal ... yeah, we wanna have- Yeah ... that deep latch. Yeah. There's so many times where babies can feed, but is it optimal? Yeah, that's right. Yeah. Okay. That's, uh... So to your point, it's not just, like, getting the job done.
We're looking for those mechanics that you were speaking to. And so at the first sign, really, if people, if, if parents are noticing that it doesn't feel like it, like you said, and having ideally a consultant that they can be speaking with around this and kind of checking. But if it's occurring and looking like this is not optimal, then we're taking those next steps to take some action?
Yeah, definitely. Okay. I think we wanna get, uh, we want, just wanna check the tongue function and, uh, making sure that the tongue is free and it's not restricted. Uh, a lot of people think that we just, if the tongue can poke forward, uh, that is good- Yeah ... um, there, there should be no restriction. But really, we actually don't really need the tongue to come out forward too much apart from licking.
We actually want tongue elevation- Mm ... tongue elevation for optimal suction, for speech development, speech articulation, good palate development, and good breathing. Mm. When that tongue is up, uh, it can really help stabilize the airway. So if we learn to compensate and use other muscles around our face to- Yes
um, extract milk at the breast because our tongue can't do it, then our tongue never develops that tone. And the bulk of the tongue is the genioglossus, which is the main upper airway dilator mus- muscle, and it keeps our throat open during sleep. Mm. So when we are sleeping, everything is floppy, uh, we're gonna have more, uh, airway instability- Hmm
if we don't have a tongue that is good at lifting and suctioning. Yeah. So true. Okay. Well, so, you know, I shared with you that every guest we have on, we ask them- ... a few questions about how they're managing their own sleep, but before we get there, I know this is a huge topic, and it's clear to me that you have so much information and so, like, a wealth of knowledge, and just I love your, your passion for this, and, it just, it's clear that it's your mission being fulfilled.
So is there anything that we left out of this huge topic that you wanna make sure we hit on or kind of put a bow on? Yeah, I think really having that opportunity to say that these adult problems like snoring, obstructive sleep apnea- Yeah ... they are developmental problems that have their origins from infancy.
Okay. Um, and, you know, you really allowed me the opportunity to really, uh, highlight that that palate development is really important. Mm. But then parents also should recognize, don't ignore a child's snore. Uh- Yes ... it, it is linked to increased risk of behavioral problems and ADHD-type symptoms. And so if you are having these, uh, really just to check how your child is breathing during sleep.
Recognize those red flags. Yeah. Um, you know, mouth breathing, snoring, restlessness, tossing, turning, bedwetting, teeth grinding, um, you know, these unusual sleep positions or any un- uninterrup- interruptions that we can't really explain. Could it be a breathing concern? Hmm. And make sure that breathing quality is investigated before, uh, medicating a child with these issues.
I, I think- Yes ... that would be another key message that I would want parents to- Mm ... understand about children's airway health. Ugh, so important. Yeah, thank you for saying that. It's just, you can change a lot of lives with the message that you're getting out there, so really important. Okay, great. Well, just to get just a little sense of how you're thinking about your own sleep, things you're navigating, so the first question we ask is what is your nightly sleep routine looking like right now?
Yeah. So Mollie, I, um, as I mentioned to you, I've listened to your podcast b- before, but now I forgot that you ask these questions- ... so puts me under stress- Oh ... because I have not a very good sleep hygiene. But usually- Oh ... I kinda just, um- Yeah, just usually when I, when I'm ready to go to sleep- Yeah ... I will go to sleep.
And if I think that I need to unwind, I will just sit in front of my red light and just have that relaxation. So that's about- I love that ... the extent of my sleep hygiene. I do love that red light. Well, you know what? It's so funny, 'cause, uh, one of the things that I've seen is, I don't even know, we've interviewed over, like, 300 people at this point, and sometimes the simple kind of routines are some of the seemingly most effective routines in some cases.
'Cause there are times where people come on and they're like, "I have 27 things that I do, but I'm still stressed about sleep and stuff." So, you know, kind of like that over... Like, the, the rigidness. So there can be something to learn sometimes from kind of just letting all that go and trusting, so that's great.
Okay, and then the second question would be what might we see in your morning kind of sleep routine, with the idea that how you start your day could impact your sleep? Yeah. Usually, it's a bit of a rush. Yes. Today, I'm just like, "Get up. Let's get to it." Especially today. Sorry about today. Later on, I'm going to have...
Uh, 'cause it's pretty early, I'm just gonna have- Yeah ... uh, breakfast. Yeah. I usually really, uh, do like to have a good read and coffee. Okay. I love the ritual of that. I know, and you know, it's so funny 'cause so many people will be like, "Oh, okay, so you have a sleep company, so you can't have any coffee or anything."
I'm like, "What? I love stimulants," you know? So obviously everything in moderation and da, da, da, da, da. But you know, it's how can we have a life where we have joy and we have routine and we have ritual and, and yet our sleep works and our, our days work and yeah. Yeah. So I love that. Beautiful. And then what might we see on your nightstand or in your kind of sleep environment?
Yeah, it may be a bit messy. I love it. Oh, I don't know if you wanna hear it, but yes, I've got a load of books, lots of little crystals, and- Aw, cute ... stones. Uh, I love to collect little pebbles wherever I go. What? And I just haven't filed them. I just... It's just overflowing. Like, even tumbled little, um, glass- Really?
and stuff like that, uh, from Sicily. Just, just wherever I go I like to pick up stuff. That's cool. So there's a lot of, uh, clutter. Clutter. But that's a
cool thing. So, like, when you travel you always kind of find little, like, rocks to take home and kind of memorabilia type- Yes That's neat. I love that. Yes. And it's meant to go in a jar. Yeah. But I just haven't labeled for the last couple of years. So it's just piling up. You've been busy. You've been writing books- Yes
and doing all kinds of stuff, so. Yeah. Okay. No, that's cool. I've... Lots of people say books, but not many people have said pebbles. So, um- ... that's very cool. Yeah. Okay. And then the last question would be, so far to date, what would you say has made the biggest difference to your sleep? Or maybe said another way, maybe biggest aha moment in managing your sleep?
Yeah. Like I said, Mollie, I am afraid to say, being in this field, I don't pay a lot of great deal to it. It's just easy to get to sleep. Yeah. But I really do like that red light. It's just very... makes me sleepy. Mm. It's just very calming Oh, that's nice And I'll often do it in the daytime- Yeah ... in the middle of the day too.
Oh, great. Yeah, it just really feels good. So- That's nice. Do you have a particular kind or anything? Or like is it like a panel? Yeah, it's a panel. Okay And I think you can get it to hang on top of you, but I just have it on the floor and I just lie down next to it. Oh, that's nice. Okay. Yeah Yes, very relaxing and peaceful.
I love that. Yeah, and we talk- Feels like being in, in the sun- Yeah ... without getting sun damage. It just feels- Totally ... good. Great. Yeah, I love it. I mean, we talk a lot about the power of light on this podcast and in our courses and what have you, so it can't be snoozed on, no pun intended, the, the power of light-
and red light and infrared light and how that can be supportive of mitochondrial health and, and sleep in general, so that makes a lot of sense. That's amazing. Okay, and then lastly, so for people that are hearing your wisdom, really wanna be more in this conversation, how can they get your book, follow you, be a part of your world, work with you, et cetera?
Yeah. To get the book is Amazon is the easiest, widest distribution, so, um, Breathe, Sleep and Thrive on Amazon. Um, I'm most active on Facebook. Um- Okay ... so Dr. Sherene Lim. Uh, I always post a lot of things and what I'm learning and discovering and different cases and information and research. I believe that, uh, I have a really important role to promote this knowledge out.
Yes. Yeah. Um, and so that's where I'm active. And we can also have all these things in the show notes too, so people can kinda- Yeah ... click through. Yeah. If there's any other way, or even to work with you in person and yeah. Oh, that's right, to work with me. Yes. I mean, really, at the moment we're not taking any new patients.
Okay. But if you have- Yeah, good, I bet you're pretty booked up ... if you have seen your child as an infant or earlier on, reach out to the front office. We're gonna prioritize you. Aw. Yeah. That's amazing. No, I love what you said, too, about, you know, really taking seriously this responsibility to get this information out.
I think that's so important when people have found, you know, really their passion and mission in this life, and especially when it can just impact so profoundly their experience of life and when gotten at the root wh- when they're young so that their entire lives can look different instead of, like you said, the Band-Aid and all that we're currently kinda seeing right now.
So that's fantastic. What a pioneer. No, absolutely. I think a lot of the times parents have this gut intuition. Yeah. And they've gotta trust it when they feel something is not right. Mm. Yeah. No, so thank you so much, Mollie, for the opportunity- Yes ... uh, to, to discuss children's sleep on your- Yeah ... podcast. No- Yeah
I appreciate it. You're really helping to kind of be a part of what we're needing to get more into, which is getting that information out as well, since it's been very adult-centric for quite some time, and we need to kinda change that up, so thanks for being a part of that. You've been listening to the Sleep Is a Skill podcast, the top podcast for people who wanna take their sleep skills to the next level.
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